Just re-watched The Valiant. Reminded me of Star Trek 2009...

[infinix]

Okay, I understand the point that different versions of the Starfleet would have done different things. So here are the premise.

1. JJ's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
2. Dominion War's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
3. TOS' Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded

I'm going to assume that there is enough consistency between DS9 and TNG that they are one and the same, filed under Dominion War.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

 

[Cyke101]

2. Dominion War's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
~snip~
I'm going to assume that there is enough consistency between DS9 and TNG that they are one and the same, filed under Dominion War.

Well, to clarify, when I use the term TNG Starfleet, I use that as a blanket term for DS9 and VOY as well since the three shows are of the same era. We certainly have plenty of crossover from administration (Admirals Hayes, Janeway, Nechayev, etc) for a kind of internal consistency. For instance, Starfleet's fleet actions during TNG are consistent with the fleet actions of DS9, albeit larger in scale.

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

Now we're moving off topic, but I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that the multiverse manipulates reality to always have a Captain Kirk, only because things were so much more humble in TOS. The Enterprise wasn't the flagship and while Kirk himself was a young but accomplished captain, he wasn't *really* all that special. The show was just about the adventures of a ship in a fleet amongst other ships that could be having similar adventures. TOS showed us legends and officers and officials that were above Kirk and Co., with even larger resumes, but we weren't interested in them, we were interested in Kirk and Co. There was something of a connect there with the audience: "No, I was born in Iowa, I only work in space" is a really great line. Ordinary people making themselves extraordinary (that's also why I love reading character bios).

Admittedly, it's something I find appealing in DS9 and VOY, but not as much in TNG and ENT. The former group is a bunch of ragtag people who are what the circumstances make them and try to aspire to be more, the latter is a collection of the best of the best. Both cases means very different modes of storytelling. I also feel that's difference between, say, TUC and XI -- TUC had an inferior ship and an imperfect crew, whereas XI had the superior ship and at least five prodigies (Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Scott, Chekov).

But that's just my preference. Mileage may vary.

 

[infinix]

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

How was it out of the hands of the people who created the film? All things conspired to make Kirk captain for no other reason than the people who created the film wanted it that way.

 

[Cyke101]

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

How was it out of the hands of the people who created the film? All things conspired to make Kirk captain for no other reason than the people who created the film wanted it that way.

Well, for one thing, the term "Captain Kirk" is really ingrained into pop culture consciousness. Kirk as we know him actually spent more time chronologically as Admiral, but he was demoted back to captain simply because everyone (internal and external to the Trekverse) preferred it that way.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Someone said on page 1 "cult of personality." Is that what you call such a phenomenon that occurred on that ship? I was really scared for Jake and Nog in this episode. The Dominion are scary, sure, but they aren't afraid to show they're not on your side. These... kids were calling themselves Starfleet (albeit with a rather Gestapo-like "Red Shirt Squad" title) and shoving guns in the non-included kid's face for merely talking about home. If I had been Jake, I would have used my knowledge of a Defiant-class vessel to disable every cadet there (probably with that anethezine gas they love using) and plot a course for friendly territory ASAP.

Okay, I understand the point that different versions of the Starfleet would have done different things. So here are the premise.

1. JJ's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
2. Dominion War's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
3. TOS' Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded

I'm going to assume that there is enough consistency between DS9 and TNG that they are one and the same, filed under Dominion War.

1. Starfleet would have awarded him for his bravery and command abilities. He would probably then be made XO of the Valiant, but not captain. He's still a cadet, after all... he could have been in second or third year, not right at the end like "nuKirk" was.

2. Watters would have been awarded for bravery and command abilities. He would probably keep going on missions like these for the duration of his academy days. He would start under those nine officers as chief of cadets. In other words, the same ol', same ol'.

3. I don't think this would have happened with TOS Starfleet, period. But for the sake of the question, he would have been privately acknowledged for keeping the ship in one piece. Publicly, he would have been relieved of command and returned to academy to finish his days as a cadet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Now, now, don't go apeshit. (or if you prefer, go bananas)

Actually, bananas IS apeshit. Think about it...

That's deep man....

I nicked that from George Carlin.

 

[Danoz]

2. Dominion War's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
~snip~
I'm going to assume that there is enough consistency between DS9 and TNG that they are one and the same, filed under Dominion War.

Well, to clarify, when I use the term TNG Starfleet, I use that as a blanket term for DS9 and VOY as well since the three shows are of the same era. We certainly have plenty of crossover from administration (Admirals Hayes, Janeway, Nechayev, etc) for a kind of internal consistency. For instance, Starfleet's fleet actions during TNG are consistent with the fleet actions of DS9, albeit larger in scale.

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

Now we're moving off topic, but I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that the multiverse manipulates reality to always have a Captain Kirk, only because things were so much more humble in TOS. The Enterprise wasn't the flagship and while Kirk himself was a young but accomplished captain, he wasn't *really* all that special. The show was just about the adventures of a ship in a fleet amongst other ships that could be having similar adventures. TOS showed us legends and officers and officials that were above Kirk and Co., with even larger resumes, but we weren't interested in them, we were interested in Kirk and Co. There was something of a connect there with the audience: "No, I was born in Iowa, I only work in space" is a really great line. Ordinary people making themselves extraordinary (that's also why I love reading character bios).

Admittedly, it's something I find appealing in DS9 and VOY, but not as much in TNG and ENT. The former group is a bunch of ragtag people who are what the circumstances make them and try to aspire to be more, the latter is a collection of the best of the best. Both cases means very different modes of storytelling. I also feel that's difference between, say, TUC and XI -- TUC had an inferior ship and an imperfect crew, whereas XI had the superior ship and at least five prodigies (Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Scott, Chekov).

But that's just my preference. Mileage may vary.

I want to second this, but throw a wrench to say that the Enterprise of TNG, while the flagship, still falls into the former category. We are even shown an alternate timeline where Picard was never captain (and despite some origin plot holes) things are largely unchanged.

Unfortunately, somewhere along ENT era Star Trek writers followed in line with the "Neo" generation of thinking-- having a central character with whom everything depends. I always hated the Temporal Cold War arch in ENT with Archer being the father of the Federation and any further technological advancement for humanity . Same thing with JJ's universe. Kirk and Spock may have been close in the other timeline, but he Kirk of JJ's universe-- the Kirk who loses his father, is a brash, arrogant young man who has absolutely no business in the Captain's chair (who knows if they should be friends now?). You're telling me Pike didn't have capable, seasoned officers on board for this kind of crisis that he trusted? Anyway, this is the main reason I just enjoy the 2009 movie like the piece of candy that it is, while understanding it's not the Star Trek I know and love... (unfortunately, that time has gone. I watched Insurrection the other day and I insist it is a better movie than the 2009).

Oh more on topic, Valiant was a wonderful episode. I wanted them to succeed, but their deaths were a humbling reminder that this is a real war-- not a game, and that most of the time that kind of recklessness gets you a Federation funeral.

 

[Anwar]

Well, remember that TOS itself had a "one person made all the difference" story first: City on the Edge of Forever.

As for Picard and "Tapestry", the whole thing was an illusion created by Q so the rules don't exactly apply.

 

[Danoz]

Well, remember that TOS itself had a "one person made all the difference" story first: City on the Edge of Forever.

As for Picard and "Tapestry", the whole thing was an illusion created by Q so the rules don't exactly apply.

This is fair enough, though I still want to say that the "Neo" arch has no place in Star Trek.

 

[Cyke101]

2. Dominion War's Starfleet - What would happen to Matters if he succeeded
~snip~
I'm going to assume that there is enough consistency between DS9 and TNG that they are one and the same, filed under Dominion War.

Well, to clarify, when I use the term TNG Starfleet, I use that as a blanket term for DS9 and VOY as well since the three shows are of the same era. We certainly have plenty of crossover from administration (Admirals Hayes, Janeway, Nechayev, etc) for a kind of internal consistency. For instance, Starfleet's fleet actions during TNG are consistent with the fleet actions of DS9, albeit larger in scale.

I think promoting Kirk to Captain in the film was a great idea. Indeed, arguably it was out of the hands of the people who actually created the film. The universe has no need or desire for a Kirk who isn't a Captain. All things conspire to make him Captain.

Now we're moving off topic, but I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that the multiverse manipulates reality to always have a Captain Kirk, only because things were so much more humble in TOS. The Enterprise wasn't the flagship and while Kirk himself was a young but accomplished captain, he wasn't *really* all that special. The show was just about the adventures of a ship in a fleet amongst other ships that could be having similar adventures. TOS showed us legends and officers and officials that were above Kirk and Co., with even larger resumes, but we weren't interested in them, we were interested in Kirk and Co. There was something of a connect there with the audience: "No, I was born in Iowa, I only work in space" is a really great line. Ordinary people making themselves extraordinary (that's also why I love reading character bios).

Admittedly, it's something I find appealing in DS9 and VOY, but not as much in TNG and ENT. The former group is a bunch of ragtag people who are what the circumstances make them and try to aspire to be more, the latter is a collection of the best of the best. Both cases means very different modes of storytelling. I also feel that's difference between, say, TUC and XI -- TUC had an inferior ship and an imperfect crew, whereas XI had the superior ship and at least five prodigies (Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Scott, Chekov).

But that's just my preference. Mileage may vary.

I want to second this, but throw a wrench to say that the Enterprise of TNG, while the flagship, still falls into the former category. We are even shown an alternate timeline where Picard was never captain (and despite some origin plot holes) things are largely unchanged.

I suppose a difference between Picard and some of the other depictions of other characters is that we already see Picard as among the best well before Tapestry, rather than slowly building up his career, character, or rank as the show went on. Basically, I've no problems with characters who worked their way up, but it's the reveal from the start that they *are* automatically gifted or unique that robs some of the dramatic tension for me.

Picard had a seeing blind man, the only android in Starfleet, the only Klingon in Starfleet, a Kirk-like XO (with the command record to match), and a boy genius. Rather, the very fact that Picard had his pick of the litter and that they all jumped on the offer rules them out as a ragtag bunch. I'm so sure one would rarely turn down the offer to serve on the flagship so I don't begrudge them, (and hey, being the captain of the flagship comes with a certain amount of perks), but they were accomplished or unique before the show started. I just feel more of a connection with characters who become great during the show.

(By the way, I'm glad you brought up Tapestry. It's just another reason to go watch that episode -- and given my reasons above, it's pretty obvious why I think so highly of the episode)

But yeah, totally agreed about Archer and ENT. Sure, we had the coincidental name drop of the (rather common) name Archer in previous Trek, but connecting the name to the captain seems like one big afterthought (like Archer IV). It seems rather odd that we don't hear about him in the other Trek shows when we hear about Cochrane and Daystrom a bit -- he should essentially be the George Washington of the Federation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even that full Lt. was a field promotion. Kirk was about to be kicked out of the academy for cheating on an exam. He was NOT a full Lt. when he sneaked on-board the Enterprise on medical reasons.

Kirk as a lieutenant while still a cadet goes all the way back to TOS. Uhura was also held the rank of lieutenant while still a cadet in STXI.

Kirk wasn't being kicked out of the academy - McCoy said, "the board will rule in your favour, most likely". Recall that Kirk Prime also cheated his third Kobayshi Maru test, and was given a commendation for it. Why assume this Kirk, doing the same thing, would get kicked out?

 

[Anwar]

Yes, Kirk Prime was also a cheat. Thing is, we only hear that he cheated and we don't see how it happened so it came off as less obnoxious than what we saw in NuTrek. In fact, not showing it is probably the only way for it to work since a guy cheating on an evaluation like that is going to come off as obnoxious regardless.

 

[infinix]

Kirk as a lieutenant while still a cadet goes all the way back to TOS. Uhura was also held the rank of lieutenant while still a cadet in STXI.

Kirk wasn't being kicked out of the academy - McCoy said, "the board will rule in your favour, most likely". Recall that Kirk Prime also cheated his third Kobayshi Maru test, and was given a commendation for it. Why assume this Kirk, doing the same thing, would get kicked out?

I'll give you the fact that Kirk Prime also cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test. But the JJ Kirk was at least being suspended from the Academy.

On the issue of Kirk as a Lieutenant while still a cadet.... can you please elaborate? How was Kirk (or Uhura) holding a military rank if they haven't graduated from the Academy yet?

 

[Cyke101]

Kirk as a lieutenant while still a cadet goes all the way back to TOS. Uhura was also held the rank of lieutenant while still a cadet in STXI.

Kirk wasn't being kicked out of the academy - McCoy said, "the board will rule in your favour, most likely". Recall that Kirk Prime also cheated his third Kobayshi Maru test, and was given a commendation for it. Why assume this Kirk, doing the same thing, would get kicked out?

I'll give you the fact that Kirk Prime also cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test. But the JJ Kirk was at least being suspended from the Academy.

On the issue of Kirk as a Lieutenant while still a cadet.... can you please elaborate? How was Kirk (or Uhura) holding a military rank if they haven't graduated from the Academy yet?

First off, how do we know that Kirk Prime wasn't also suspended, either? I don't think the canon ever went into great depth about the consequences other than his commendation.

As for Kirk as a LT from the Academy, IIRC Saavik was also a LT at the Academy during the events of Star Trek II, so much so that she was essentially treated as part of the senior staff by our heroes, even if she wasn't outright declared part of it.

Also, my memory of programs like the ROTC are really hazy, but I *think* ROTC students and the Coast Guard can reach certain, perhaps similar ranks before they finish their training. But of course, I could be wrong about that, so feel free to correct me there.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kirk as a lieutenant while still a cadet goes all the way back to TOS. Uhura was also held the rank of lieutenant while still a cadet in STXI.

Kirk wasn't being kicked out of the academy - McCoy said, "the board will rule in your favour, most likely". Recall that Kirk Prime also cheated his third Kobayshi Maru test, and was given a commendation for it. Why assume this Kirk, doing the same thing, would get kicked out?

I'll give you the fact that Kirk Prime also cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test. But the JJ Kirk was at least being suspended from the Academy.

On the issue of Kirk as a Lieutenant while still a cadet.... can you please elaborate? How was Kirk (or Uhura) holding a military rank if they haven't graduated from the Academy yet?

I have no idea how it works, just that there are precedents for cadets with the rank of lieutenent in Trek.

 

[Leathco]

Lets go the other direction. In Enterprises final episode (These Are The Voyages), no one had been promoted in a decade of service.

 

[Anwar]

It took Data 27 years to become a Lt Cmdr, and he never got a promotion after that. So that's 14 years without a promotion.

 

[Neoshade]

They could've at least done a time jump or something at the end, the way it is now just makes Kirk seem like a punk who got a lucky break.

I mean sure, that may have been what happened in TOS but at least we didn't have to SEE it...

lolz, reminds me of bush. a punk, who got luck.


the ST 09" film... was 95% mainstream, 5% real trek. it was a set up, for the next movies. rank up everyone for the next movie.

they should have done like... time jump though, to when everyone reached the ranks like in TOS. but w/e like i said, mainstream movie.

 

[Cyke101]

They could've at least done a time jump or something at the end, the way it is now just makes Kirk seem like a punk who got a lucky break.

I mean sure, that may have been what happened in TOS but at least we didn't have to SEE it...

lolz, reminds me of bush. a punk, who got luck.


the ST 09" film... was 95% mainstream, 5% real trek. it was a set up, for the next movies. rank up everyone for the next movie.

they should have done like... time jump though, to when everyone reached the ranks like in TOS. but w/e like i said, mainstream movie.

Kirk and Pike were the only ones to really get a promotion though. Scott was already in Starfleet and received a new job (not really a new rank, unless I'm mistaken), McCoy was a full MD before he joined Starfleet (in the real world, quite a few hospitals have Chiefs that are younger than McCoy -- it's about who can take command most efficiently), and Spock and Sulu were already done with the academy when we got to them. As for ranks while still in the academy, that's already been covered, so Uhura doesn't have much to worry about.

The only two people that seem off are Kirk's rather quick promotion -- and Chekov's newfound Wesley status.