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Robert Zemeckis' Yellow Submarine is Sunk

This is a relief. Zemeckis's obsession with motion capture has ruined him as a filmmaker. He used to do terrific stuff, but now he's settled in the Uncanny Valley and it's not a pretty sight.
Thirded. I think doing Polar Express in mo-cap was a mistake, but then it's doubtful that any feature-length version of that ten-minute story would have worked. Mocapping Beowulf was definitely a mistake, in that the uncanny character kneecapped any chance of making a really grimy, vividly savory celebration of machismo. By Christmas Carol, I was all... really?

Say what you like about Big Jim, Avatar substantially pushed the technological envelope in mocapped characters and 3D. Polar Express had some technical innovation, but the following two features have just been fiddling with that technique, and I don't see any reason to believe that Yellow Submarine wouldn't have been more of the same.
 
The unfortunate fact is that movie audiences are, with the partial exception of Avatar, which was still also a live-action film, consistently rejecting CG animated films that are anything even remotely approaching realistic in style. Even Rango is under-performing because it isn't cartoonish enough.

I'm not really a fan of Zemeckis' motion capture technique, but I think it's a shame that his string of box office failures mean we're going to be saddled with Shrek clones starring sarcastic talking animals for years to come.
 
Even Rango is under-performing because it isn't cartoonish enough.
[citation needed] ;)

Fair enough. :techman: It's simply a suspicion on my part that a more cartoonish, less mature Rango would have had a better time at the box office. My hunch is that audiences have seen Gnomeo and Juliet almost as much as the much higher profile Rango in part because of this distinction. Certainly the studios continue to find gold in mining the trend of ironic pop-culture referencing CG animated films.
 
Say what you like about Big Jim

Okay, he's a fucking genius.

Avatar substantially pushed the technological envelope in mocapped characters and 3D. Polar Express had some technical innovation, but the following two features have just been fiddling with that technique, and I don't see any reason to believe that Yellow Submarine wouldn't have been more of the same.

Seeing Cameron do so well what he'd been attempting to do may, in fact, have stoked Zemeckis to have another go at the technique.
 
I was curious about this one, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it's cancellation. Also, I had to google "Mars Needs Moms", being completely unaware of it until now.

Now Roger Rabbit 2 is something I would have some interest in.

Than making a movie about a band where half the members are dead and can't participate and/or give their permission to have their likenesses/voices used?

(And, yes, I know: The original Beatles didn't do the speaking voices for the original film either. But that was their choice, not something occasioned by Hollywood after John's and George's deaths.)

I thought the Beatles didn't have anything to do with the film, except contributing the track "Hey Bulldog" (which didn't even make it into the theatrical cut) and their cameo at the end. In a way it's kind of a fan-film.
 
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Yeah, although if there's one thing motion capture would have a real use for is a Roger Rabit sequel that's been rumoured. That would be a good use for it.

God, no. That would be totally wrong. Roger Rabbit toons should not be rendered in any kind of 3D computer animation. I happened across some test footage of that for the abortive RR sequel just the other day, and it looked so wrong. It would have to be hand-drawn 2D animation or it just wouldn't work. You can't replace hand-drawn 2D animation with 3D any more than you can replace oil painting with sculpture. They're distinct art forms with distinct aesthetics.

And if you mean using mo-cap to create the live-action characters, that would be wrong too. The contrast between live and animated is essential to the look and feel of the Roger Rabbit world.



The unfortunate fact is that movie audiences are, with the partial exception of Avatar, which was still also a live-action film, consistently rejecting CG animated films that are anything even remotely approaching realistic in style.

No, that's not true. It depends on the technique that's used. We have the technology to create a realistic-looking 3D computer model, but there are two different ways of animating that model, imbuing it with motion and expression. One is key-frame animation, a human animator shaping the poses and expressions from scratch; the other is motion-capture, letting a computer record a live actor's movements and expressions and making the computer model mimic them. And regardless of how realistic the character is in design and appearance, to date, key-frame animation is still a more successful way of creating believable, humanlike movement and expression with the nuance and life of a real person, while strict motion-capture gives results that are too mechanical and lifeless. The most successful motion-capture characters, such as Gollum and the Na'vi, have actually relied on a blend of mo-cap and key-frame animation, with human animators tweaking and refining the mo-cap data to add more lifelike nuance to it.

The problem with Zemeckis's films is that he relies too much on strict mo-cap, and so the results are characters that look lifelike but lack the subtle liveliness of a real person. And so they just don't look good.

And really, what a waste to have a technology that lets you create any imaginable image and only use it to try to replicate real human beings. If you want to show lifelike human beings onscreen, by far the best way to do it is to get real human beings and point a camera at them. Creating cartoon characters (which is what CG images are) almost as realistic as human beings gives you something that isn't quite real enough to pass as reality but not cartoony enough to work as a cartoon, so it isn't aesthetically satisfying as either. Zemeckis's aesthetic is ugly because it's too literal in its realism. The power of cartoons is in their heightened reality, the distillation and exaggeration that can make them feel more real than the real thing. For instance, the character designs in The Incredibles are highly caricatured, but their character animation, the subtle expressions and body language of the characters, are so brilliantly subtle and detailed that they feel far more realistic to me than Zemeckis's accurately-proportioned but dead-eyed CG characters.

So it's not realism that audiences are rejecting. It's a preoccupation with the wrong kind of realism. Accuracy of surface detail isn't important. The human mind registers human faces in a way that exaggerates distinctive traits and underplays the trivial details; studies have shown that we actually recognize caricatures of people more readily than photographs of the same people. And what we really see as human and alive in other people is their expressions, their nuances of motion, the constant saccade of their eyes, etc. If you capture those details of movement and expression, then you will make your audience perceive the characters as real, regardless of their physical proportions.


I'm not really a fan of Zemeckis' motion capture technique, but I think it's a shame that his string of box office failures mean we're going to be saddled with Shrek clones starring sarcastic talking animals for years to come.

Don't confuse visual style with story content. It's possible to tell serious stories with a cartoony design style; see Batman: The Animated Series. And there are plenty of ways to make comedies that are very different in tone from the likes of Shrek and far more sophisticated -- such as most any Pixar film or The Triplets of Belleville.
 
I thought the Beatles didn't have anything to do with the film, except contributing the track "Hey Bulldog" (which didn't even make it into the theatrical cut). In a way it's kind of a fan-film.
I can't think of any way of twisting the definition of "fan film" to make it fit Yellow Submarine...

The Beatles weren't enthusiastic about the film initially. They had to do a third film, per their contract with UA, only they couldn't decide what they wanted to do, and Brian Epstein thought that an animated film, with very limited involvement by the band, would suffice to fulfill the contract.

Yellow Submarine was, initially, supposed to be a full-length version of the Beatles cartoon, and the Beatles would have appeared as they did in the cartoon, not in their Pepper-era guises. During production, they decided to modernize the look of the Beatles. The Beatles provided a few new songs (which were mainly cast-offs), Paul was actually involved in refining and approving the storyline, and when they saw an assembly cut of the film they were blown away by it. Despite their indifference to the film during production, the Beatles were actually quite proud of it when it was done.
 
Yeah, although if there's one thing motion capture would have a real use for is a Roger Rabit sequel that's been rumoured. That would be a good use for it.

God, no. That would be totally wrong. Roger Rabbit toons should not be rendered in any kind of 3D computer animation. I happened across some test footage of that for the abortive RR sequel just the other day, and it looked so wrong. It would have to be hand-drawn 2D animation or it just wouldn't work. You can't replace hand-drawn 2D animation with 3D any more than you can replace oil painting with sculpture. They're distinct art forms with distinct aesthetics.

I would tend to agree with this, the whole point was that it was supposed to be classic Disney characters brought to life as they appeared in Classic Disney, few of whom have appeared in 3D form to any significant degree, and certainly aren't in the public consciousness in that form.

It would be completely incongruous for these characters to appear as 3d animation.
 
Computer animation can be rendered to appear as traditional cel animation, and there's no reason in the world to think that artists working on the level of those at Pixar or Dreamworks couldn't successfully create the illusion that traditional methods had been used. This would certainly be more efficient.
 
I thought the Beatles didn't have anything to do with the film, except contributing the track "Hey Bulldog" (which didn't even make it into the theatrical cut). In a way it's kind of a fan-film.
I can't think of any way of twisting the definition of "fan film" to make it fit Yellow Submarine...

The Beatles weren't enthusiastic about the film initially. They had to do a third film, per their contract with UA, only they couldn't decide what they wanted to do, and Brian Epstein thought that an animated film, with very limited involvement by the band, would suffice to fulfill the contract.

Yellow Submarine was, initially, supposed to be a full-length version of the Beatles cartoon, and the Beatles would have appeared as they did in the cartoon, not in their Pepper-era guises. During production, they decided to modernize the look of the Beatles. The Beatles provided a few new songs (which were mainly cast-offs), Paul was actually involved in refining and approving the storyline, and when they saw an assembly cut of the film they were blown away by it. Despite their indifference to the film during production, the Beatles were actually quite proud of it when it was done.

Right, I didn't mean to discount the film as an achievement, it's certainly a great film and a landmark piece of animation. What I meant by fan film is that the producers mostly took Beatles music and built their own animations around it without any involvement of the Beatles themselves. I wasn't aware that Paul had any say on the story, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I though they basically authorized the movie and kicked in a couple of songs while the animators did their own thing.
 
Computer animation can be rendered to appear as traditional cel animation, and there's no reason in the world to think that artists working on the level of those at Pixar or Dreamworks couldn't successfully create the illusion that traditional methods had been used. This would certainly be more efficient.


Well that's certainly true. But if you were addressing my comment, I was referring to the way the characters appear, rather than the particular method used to achieve it.

Christopher made it sound as though he had seen footage where the characters were rendered in 3D, which sounds like an awful idea from where i'm standing.
 
That was a fascinating post, Christopher. Thank you.

The human mind registers human faces in a way that exaggerates distinctive traits and underplays the trivial details; studies have shown that we actually recognize caricatures of people more readily than photographs of the same people.
I found this so interesting that I decided to search for it. Although I am not in a position to know what the prevailing opinion on the subject is, at least one study does not support this idea. However, the abstract of this one, against it, does describe an interesting theory for why it might be so.

Because photographs capture an individual at a moment in time, they contain fleeting features as well as more stable ones. Caricature line drawings, however, include stable features and emphasize distinctive ones. As such, caricatures are closer to schematic memory representations than are photographs. Three experiments using faces of public figures test the hypothesis that caricatures yield better performance than do photographs. Contrary to hypothesis, photographs lead to better performance than do line-drawing caricatures in three different tasks: name recall, face recognition, and name-face verification reaction time. Photographs are also rated as more characteristic or representative of their targets than are line-drawing caricatures.
--- Barbara Tversky and Daphna Baratz, Memory for faces: Are caricatures better than photographs? Memory & Cognition, 1985. 13 (1), 45-49

Additionally, in their discussion, the following is revealing.
Why did the caricatures fail? One possibility is that our caricatures were not satisfactory, that another artist or group of artists might have produced better ones.

I was certainly not impressed with their caricature drawings.
 


That's plausible, particularly since the studio has known that Mars was in trouble for quite a while:

Disney knew there was a problem more than a year ago when screening an early cut of the film. It's no coincidence that the studio, under the new leadership of Rich Ross, decided to part ways with ImageMovers shortly after the screening. But it was too late to shelve Mars without eating significant costs.

Link
 
I would tend to agree with this, the whole point was that it was supposed to be classic Disney characters brought to life as they appeared in Classic Disney, few of whom have appeared in 3D form to any significant degree, and certainly aren't in the public consciousness in that form.

Also Warner Bros., MGM, Fleischer, Lantz, and other characters. The director and animators took great care to ensure that Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, and the rest were all animated based on their 1947 models and personalities, and they did so over the objections of the studios, who wanted the more familiar, marketing-friendly modern versions to be used.


What I meant by fan film is that the producers mostly took Beatles music and built their own animations around it without any involvement of the Beatles themselves. I wasn't aware that Paul had any say on the story, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I though they basically authorized the movie and kicked in a couple of songs while the animators did their own thing.

But the Beatles actually appeared in live-action at the end of the film. I remember Paul reprising the "I've got a hole in me pocket" gag.
 
What I meant by fan film is that the producers mostly took Beatles music and built their own animations around it without any involvement of the Beatles themselves. I wasn't aware that Paul had any say on the story, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I though they basically authorized the movie and kicked in a couple of songs while the animators did their own thing.
But the Beatles actually appeared in live-action at the end of the film. I remember Paul reprising the "I've got a hole in me pocket" gag.

Yes but that's basically a cameo.

What I was attempting to do was to make a distinction between something like "Magical Mystery Tour" in which the Beatles were involved in every facet of the production (writing it, acting in it, choosing the songs to go in it) versus something like "Yellow Submarine" where the animators were inspired by Beatles music and made something visual to go along with that without any direct involvement of The Beatles, in much the same way that people will create and post music videos to Youtube today, though obviously on a much grander scale.

Not sure why this is such a point of contention, but wikipedia does seem to back me up that the Beatles had little to do with it, and certainly my recollection of when they talked about the movie on the Anthology video was that they liked it but weren't really involved with it (except for submitting the 5 songs for it, and adding the cameo at the end).
 
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Yeah, although if there's one thing motion capture would have a real use for is a Roger Rabit sequel that's been rumoured. That would be a good use for it.

God, no. That would be totally wrong. Roger Rabbit toons should not be rendered in any kind of 3D computer animation. I happened across some test footage of that for the abortive RR sequel just the other day, and it looked so wrong. It would have to be hand-drawn 2D animation or it just wouldn't work. You can't replace hand-drawn 2D animation with 3D any more than you can replace oil painting with sculpture. They're distinct art forms with distinct aesthetics.

And if you mean using mo-cap to create the live-action characters, that would be wrong too. The contrast between live and animated is essential to the look and feel of the Roger Rabbit world.


Forgive me. Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. Guess I was thinking they could somehow use motion-capture in 2D animation, but now thinking on it, it sounds really silly. I agree, they should stick with 2D if they do it at all.

Great comments about animated characters btw. I find it interesting that in doing what they did, they actually made the classic characters more marketable, whereas the more modern versions are basically a wash. I honestly can't see the more modern versions be more popular than their classic counterparts.
 
And really, what a waste to have a technology that lets you create any imaginable image and only use it to try to replicate real human beings. If you want to show lifelike human beings onscreen, by far the best way to do it is to get real human beings and point a camera at them.
Exactly. Clu was given some leeway since he was a computer program rather then a person, but there still hasn't been an entirely successful mocapped human character performance.
 
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