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TRON: Legacy - Review and Grading
- Thread starter Neroon
- Start date
I think you're all putting more thought into the philosophy of all this than the writers did.
Maybe. Still... the movie was a lot of fun and I'm more than happy to see it again and a sequel. Unlike say... a certain green hued insect.
I think you're all putting more thought into the philosophy of all this than the writers did.
I don't think so, if you ever saw the Tron Special Edition, the guiding force behind it Steven Lisberger really was a something of a visionary and he was still a strong force on the movie as a producer. What I am seeing is that this movie takes place in a computer with video games, and has a lot of action in it, so people really don't seem to think a lot of thought was put into it, when clearly there is. I'm sure the studio didn't want long drawn out scenes of technological philosophy though, so we have to see their intent expressed in visuals based on the action at hand.
RAMA
I think you're all putting more thought into the philosophy of all this than the writers did.
I don't think so, if you ever saw the Tron Special Edition, the guiding force behind it Steven Lisberger really was a something of a visionary and he was still a strong force on the movie as a producer. What I am seeing is that this movie takes place in a computer with video games, and has a lot of action in it, so people really don't seem to think a lot of thought was put into it, when clearly there is. I'm sure the studio didn't want long drawn out scenes of technological philosophy though, so we have to see their intent expressed in visuals based on the action at hand.
RAMA
Just saw this today: Artwork for 1982 Tron bluray revealed:
http://geeksyndicate.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/tron-1982-blu-ray-cover-art-revealed/
I just got my Art of Tron:Legacy book today, beautiful photography. I also just remembered that I had the ORIGINAL Art of Tron Book! I dug it out of some files! Totally forgot about it. Its selling for $200.
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tron-Michael-Bonifer/dp/0671455753
There is actually a very complex and comprehensive background for Legacy that was written out and considered well in advance of the film, that ties the original film, extended universe, and future films together. It's just that Legacy, by itself, is a very breezy telling of a section of the story. It could have stood to fill in more gaps and explicitly explain what the writers / worldbuilders intended.
The ISOs do mean something, but whatever it is, isn't revealed until the second film.
As for why Clu would destroy the ISOs, his rational and his obsession are mostly explained in the graphic novel, Betrayal. The ISOs for all their wonderful potential, are unplanned and worse, unexplainable. The Grid isn't constructed for them, and Clu, who is utterly focused on perfecting the design of the Grid itself, pulls his digital hair out trying to accept their existence.
When elements of the Grid become unstable, causing sections to dissolve into chaos and derezz, that instability is actually centered around the areas that the ISOs build their personal quarters in to live. Clu becomes convinced that the ISOs' existence is corrupting the Grid's basic code.
Clu is like a 2 dimensional version of Kevin Flynn. He is a sentient being, and with the way he was created, a "true AI", but much like HAL in 2001 going mad because he is ordered to do something that goes against his fundamental, hard-wired nature, Clu goes quietly insane: he is told to optimize and perfect the Grid, yet leave the ISOs alone to do as they please.
There is a huge amount of detailed world building btw. A lot of it is right there on the screen and intended to be taken in without characters acting like tour guides and explaining it all. One item in particular is what a lot of folks have asked about: why is it raining in the Grid? Why is there STEAM all over the city?
The answer is that it's energy. Legacy keeps the Tron motif that energy can be condensed to a "pure" state, which is like liquid.The Sea of Simulation is the pure, raw stuff of the electronic world's reality. Some of its energy evaporates and rises; that is what forms the clouds. If one notices, those clouds are always alive with discharges of wild energy. That energy then condenses again and rains down upon the Grid. The city has massive aqueducts that collect the liquid energy and funnel it to power stations that convert it into measured, controlled power for distribution. The construction of these systems are actually referenced in the Betrayal novel, in fact. The giant plumes of steam rising from the city are exhaust from energy rectification plants.
It is quite true that this could have been referenced with a tiny line in the film; Sam could have, for example, remarked "it rains /energy/ here..." or some such... but even so, it is all there visually.
The ISOs do mean something, but whatever it is, isn't revealed until the second film.
As for why Clu would destroy the ISOs, his rational and his obsession are mostly explained in the graphic novel, Betrayal. The ISOs for all their wonderful potential, are unplanned and worse, unexplainable. The Grid isn't constructed for them, and Clu, who is utterly focused on perfecting the design of the Grid itself, pulls his digital hair out trying to accept their existence.
When elements of the Grid become unstable, causing sections to dissolve into chaos and derezz, that instability is actually centered around the areas that the ISOs build their personal quarters in to live. Clu becomes convinced that the ISOs' existence is corrupting the Grid's basic code.
Clu is like a 2 dimensional version of Kevin Flynn. He is a sentient being, and with the way he was created, a "true AI", but much like HAL in 2001 going mad because he is ordered to do something that goes against his fundamental, hard-wired nature, Clu goes quietly insane: he is told to optimize and perfect the Grid, yet leave the ISOs alone to do as they please.
There is a huge amount of detailed world building btw. A lot of it is right there on the screen and intended to be taken in without characters acting like tour guides and explaining it all. One item in particular is what a lot of folks have asked about: why is it raining in the Grid? Why is there STEAM all over the city?
The answer is that it's energy. Legacy keeps the Tron motif that energy can be condensed to a "pure" state, which is like liquid.The Sea of Simulation is the pure, raw stuff of the electronic world's reality. Some of its energy evaporates and rises; that is what forms the clouds. If one notices, those clouds are always alive with discharges of wild energy. That energy then condenses again and rains down upon the Grid. The city has massive aqueducts that collect the liquid energy and funnel it to power stations that convert it into measured, controlled power for distribution. The construction of these systems are actually referenced in the Betrayal novel, in fact. The giant plumes of steam rising from the city are exhaust from energy rectification plants.
It is quite true that this could have been referenced with a tiny line in the film; Sam could have, for example, remarked "it rains /energy/ here..." or some such... but even so, it is all there visually.
Face it: the TRON franchise is nothing less than religious films for geeks.
Which is why I personally was so deeply offended that the first sequels were first-person-shooter computer games, which seem to me like the very antithesis of what the whole franchise is all about. Not to mention why I am so profoundly disappointed that T:L didn't have a soaring Wendy Carlos score like the original.
Which is why I personally was so deeply offended that the first sequels were first-person-shooter computer games, which seem to me like the very antithesis of what the whole franchise is all about. Not to mention why I am so profoundly disappointed that T:L didn't have a soaring Wendy Carlos score like the original.
Oh, my User!Huh. Thought that was The Matrix movies.
And me, I thought it was the Star Wars movies.
hbquikcomjamesl said:
I wonder if Quorra yells that when having sex with Sam...
Or Yori, with Tron?
So I finally read the copy of Art of Tron...some observations/confirmations:
First off, I think it's not only the writers but the designers who spent a hell of a lot of time coming up with concepts for this movie that were both updated and yet paid tribute to the original movie.
The laser in Flynn's basement was not only a miniturized version of the Shiva laser, but it had silos designed to hold left over chemical components of the body after it was digitized. This was based on consultations with several "notable physicists".
The "Grid" is INDEED a closed system as we viewers have speculated. It's held on two 1980s super servers that book-ended the computer on Flynn's desk.
I think this shows that Flynn wanted to experiment first before figuring out the implications of the "perfect world" he tried to create before letting it connect with the internet. It explains the fact that we did not see it open to the larger world in the movie. Seems sensible to me.
The new Grid has gone beyond the rigid computer rules from the original Tron...obviously the designers have rationalized why the grid is different with modern FX. Rain, softer, compound corners exist...the light cycles do not only need travel at 90 degree angles.
The light cycles from the 2 min test footage are called "Mach 4s", and existed in the period after Clu took over the Grid but before Legacy. The cycles in the movie are called "Mach 5s".
The "Outlands" are undeveloped regions of the Grid. They have either no energy flow or it flows sparsely, which is why its uncommon for anyone to go there.
The Rectifyer is 1 mile long. I have no idea how this could have used raw materials outside the laser to re-create its existence in the real world.
There is no further explanation of the Isos in the book. There is also no mention of Rinzler being Tron.
I still disagree with the video review of the book. I think the reviewer didn't realize how often computer artwork was used to render concept work instead of traditional media. All the artwork was generated as files and transferred to the FX crew.
RAMA
First off, I think it's not only the writers but the designers who spent a hell of a lot of time coming up with concepts for this movie that were both updated and yet paid tribute to the original movie.
The laser in Flynn's basement was not only a miniturized version of the Shiva laser, but it had silos designed to hold left over chemical components of the body after it was digitized. This was based on consultations with several "notable physicists".
The "Grid" is INDEED a closed system as we viewers have speculated. It's held on two 1980s super servers that book-ended the computer on Flynn's desk.
I think this shows that Flynn wanted to experiment first before figuring out the implications of the "perfect world" he tried to create before letting it connect with the internet. It explains the fact that we did not see it open to the larger world in the movie. Seems sensible to me.
The new Grid has gone beyond the rigid computer rules from the original Tron...obviously the designers have rationalized why the grid is different with modern FX. Rain, softer, compound corners exist...the light cycles do not only need travel at 90 degree angles.
The light cycles from the 2 min test footage are called "Mach 4s", and existed in the period after Clu took over the Grid but before Legacy. The cycles in the movie are called "Mach 5s".
The "Outlands" are undeveloped regions of the Grid. They have either no energy flow or it flows sparsely, which is why its uncommon for anyone to go there.
The Rectifyer is 1 mile long. I have no idea how this could have used raw materials outside the laser to re-create its existence in the real world.
There is no further explanation of the Isos in the book. There is also no mention of Rinzler being Tron.
I still disagree with the video review of the book. I think the reviewer didn't realize how often computer artwork was used to render concept work instead of traditional media. All the artwork was generated as files and transferred to the FX crew.
RAMA
*cough* Clu's page *cough*
I did love how when Flynn booted up the basement computer it made the clicky-clucky sounds of an 80s era computer booting up.
^
My thoughts exactly...
I think you're all putting more thought into the philosophy of all this than the writers did.
Maybe. Still... the movie was a lot of fun and I'm more than happy to see it again and a sequel. Unlike say... a certain green hued insect.
I have to agree...
Or Quorra when helping Kevin Flynn with his radical 'zen thing'...?
I'm sorry, but Kevin is so much cooler than Sam...i.e. Jeff B. is so much cooler than Garrett H.
The first 'Tron' film actually introduced me to Jeff Bridges...in addition to Journey...and Bruce Boxleitner, the latter, who would go on to 'Scarcrow and Mrs. King.'
I did love how when Flynn booted up the basement computer it made the clicky-clucky sounds of an 80s era computer booting up.
Ahh the clicky click. My first computer was so noisy it would have kept the Grid up all night!
TRON: LEGACY is title of the sequel to 1982′s Tron, and in a way the title is apt, because the new film has so much in common with the original, being a flashy, visually striking film with a number of exciting action sequences that ultimately ends up being about nothing much at all.
Where Legacy succeeds is visually. The world inside the computer is stark, simple, and often stunning, if a tad too black. The 3D is used well, switching on only when we enter the digital realm, and generally avoiding the 3D film cliches. The dimensionality is played behind the screen, rarely poking out in front of it. The action scenes are generally well-done and exhilarating.
If the film were a story told in pictures this would be fine. If it were showing us stuff we’ve never seen before or so graphically interesting that story didn’t matter it would also succeed. Heck if, it was really fun it’d be great. But it’s none of those things, and as such must rely on primarily on story and character.
But the problem with the story is that there isn’t much on one. Sam Flynn is sucked into the computer world and forced to play games by Clu, the creation of his long-lost father. A program named Quorra spirits him from the game grid and takes him to meet his dad, who’s been trapped in the computer for decades. There’s a limited amount of time in which to escape, and the race is on to get to the “portal” that will let Sam and his father out. Of course, the baddie Clu wants information dear old dad has that will let him invade the real world. Sam must escape and dad must stop Clu and Quorra is the love interest so you know what her function is. That’s pretty much it. Oh, there’s some mumbo jumbo about life forms generated spontaneously in the computer and about changing the world and about the corporation that Sam Flynn is ignoring even though he owns a majority holding, but as none of those amount to a hill of bits they’re not worth discussing.
The second problem is with the characters. Sam Flynn is just another generic bad-boy good guy like Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins or Jim Kirk in 2009′s Star Trek. He’s daring, smart, sexy, the hero, with nothing much of interest to say and about as much charisma as a computer program. His dad, Kevin (Jeff Bridges) seems like a high-tech version of “The Dude” (from The Big Lebowski), and speaks most in platitudes. Quorra a is just a wide-eyed neophyte who’s a badass fighter, albeit she has a few mildly endearing moments. Clu is just evil with a capital EEEEEV.
Hoodies...of the digital world!
The poor story and underdeveloped characters result in the entire film being little more than a flashy 3D chase movie with about as much dimension as a computer screen (despite its being filmed in 3D).
Neophyte feature director Joseph Kosinski’s insistence on real sets and self-lit costumes seems queerly at odds with the film’s subject matter. If ever a film should revel in its artificiality, a Tron film should be it. Instead, by insisting on real/functional costumes and real sets where possible, the film’s design and look becomes shackled to practical concerns. The costumes look like clothing, complete with wrinkles. Skin looks like skin. Makeup looks like makeup. As such, the world ends up looking like a bunch of fancy nightclubs and Apple Stores populated by clubbers in form fitting vinyl with glowy appliques. Even when there are visual effects generated backgrounds and settings the film frequently fails to stylize the environment. Mist and cloud look like just that. It does not compute.
Does this look like the digital realm to you?
As technically awkward as the original Tron looks in hindsight, its world generally looks more alien and unworldly than most of Legacy. The film escapes these limitations occasionally, as the game grid with its disk games set in floating glass boxes and lightcycle battles on a multi-leveled glass arena with curving ramps are wonderfully unreal. There’s some real excitement to these sequences, but they’re neither so dazzling nor numerous enough to carry the film.
Surprisingly, given the ubiquity of digital technology today, the film is incredibly naive or flat out ignorant about computers. For instance, Kevin Flynn says that Clu can only repurpose (brainwash) programs but not create them, which is completely at odds with the digital world we all know where viruses make copies of themselves into new systems, and where every copy is a perfect reproduction with no loss in quality.
And that’s what’s particularly sad about Legacy: it’s really got nothing to do with computers and the digital realm that’s part and parcel of our modern age. We live in a world where our lives are increasingly spent interacting with computers and where even our friends and friendships are conducted in a large part digitally. Our relationship status, interests, medical information, and legal misbehavior are all in that computer world, and there’s plenty of opportunity to make a story about the conflict between the “real world” you and the digital ones. But Legacy doesn’t talk about any of that. South Park’s episode “You Have 0 Friends” (click to view) has a hundred times more to say about our relationship to computers than Tron: Legacy. It’s too bad the filmmakers chose the easy path of flash minus substance when they could just as easily have opted to have all that sound and fury signify something.
So, In the end, Tron: Legacy is just a roller-coaster ride through a cool looking world absent anything really to say about computers and how they effect the human condition. In that way, it’s just like the Tron, which is why “legacy” is the perfect summation of Trons past and present.
END OF LINE
While I agree with the vast bulk of this, I still give this film a passing grade because it's problems are mostly in execution, while the central themes and concepts at the script's core are so promising and meaningful that I'm willing to sit through this wonky ride to see whether or not they can improve on translating those concepts to what ends up on screen.
For example, one of the missed/fleeting opportunities of Legacy is the idea that CLU represents not only a "son" of Flynn, but also a mirror-image of himself.
Flynn wanted to use the ISO's to perfect our world, literally cleaninsing if disease, hunger, war; paraside. CLU was exterminating them for precisely the same reason; he was instructed by Flynn to make The Grid perfect, and what was (in his mind) standing in his way was the ISO's themselves. A great opportunity to not only deepen the metaphor, but explain why Flynn was spending so much time in the Grid as opposed to the real world. In fact, the film almost touches upon the fact that CLU's rise to power was enabled by Flynn's carelessness, given that he was trying to raise a son and work on his quest for the "Digital Fronter" and turning Earth into paradise.
Also, the way the design of costumes and their place in the timeline really pissed me off, especially given that it's very easy to fix. From the opening bedroom scene, I was really irritated that the black, post-noir sci-fi style was already developed in 1985. Bullshit. That's incredibly lazy, and given the aesthetics of the time it's really jarring for someone who has a grasp of design or even pop art. They couldn't even alter the costume designs slightly for the flashback scenes within the Grid to communicate to the audience that there were prior events, instead relying on embarrassingly cheap "zoom" effects. What's even more irritating, is that the costume designs themselves are more "spacesuit" in look than digital or even robotic. All they literally need to do to fix this was add some 45 and 90degree angled bends to the pinstripes running down and across the suits, to emulate computer circuitry. That alone would have fixed the costumes for me.
All in all, sign me up for the next film.
That review was the first time Spoony has thrown a tantrum, and by that I mean the kind that toddlers make when they get grape juice instead of Kool-Aid. Almost 90% of his problems are actually answered in the film, which only served to bury what little credible analysis he actually came up with. He knew he was going to hate this thing long before he bought his ticket, and I can't even say that about the Star Trek reboo. I have never seen Spoony act this petty, childish, and intellectually-glib about any film he's reviewed. Any film.
He gave Highlander 2 a fucking chance, especially after seeing Endgame and The Source.
I'm not sure I'd even call it a romance. I mean she's practically Sam's step sister after-all and given that she's not a biological entity, any infatuation she might have would be purely intellectual. I'm not saying she didn't care for Sam, clearly she did, just as she cared for Flynn, it's just that glands and hormones are a non-issue for her.
Mine you, if she had a crush on anyone, I'd say it was Jules Verne.
Agreed on all counts. I actually cheered near the end when they didn't kiss. It implies that someone behind the scenes understands what's going on in their film, and that there's more to relationships (of any kind) than "Hey there" and "FUCKING-EVERYDAY-FUCK-YEAH!"
EDIT: I just remembered one of the nagging misconceptions about the original film that I can't comprehend in the slightest: The MCP and the ENCOM mainframe weren't isolated systems.
It's made crystal clean by the MCP itself that it has access to systems across the world. Hell, ARPANET, CSNET, NSFNET, and many other government and academic computer networks had been around for more than 10 years by the time of the film, and given how powerful and far-reaching ENCOM was at that time, it's no surprise that the MCP had access to all of those networks.
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That pretty much sums up my own gripe with the look of it. And I've already made my objection to the sound of it quite clear; there's no reason for me to continue flogging that deceased equine, except to say that if the powers that be went out of their way to bring in Journey, yet ignored Wendy Carlos, they just didn't "get it."
I saw the film last Friday......i enjoyed it immensely, definitely going to be a BR buy when its released....Now the 3D, this was my first 3D and i was blown away big time, they certainly are getting to grips with this 3D technology as the last 3D thing i saw required those red/green glasses, but the glasses i had were reflecting the small dim lights at the back of the cinema, so it somewhat took away my enjoyment of the 3D effect....and i was very surprised by just how quickly the whole fancy 3D effect become the norm to me.
Now i would certainly like to see the next Star Trek movie in 3D, but i don't think at this stage i require to see everything in 3D, for me it was novel effect that added to the Tron movie but i certainly don't think i need every movie to be in 3D.
But overal i was very impressed with it all.
Tron Evo 9/10
3D effects 10/10....5/10 for those glasses reflecting light behind me into my view.
Now i would certainly like to see the next Star Trek movie in 3D, but i don't think at this stage i require to see everything in 3D, for me it was novel effect that added to the Tron movie but i certainly don't think i need every movie to be in 3D.
But overal i was very impressed with it all.
Tron Evo 9/10
3D effects 10/10....5/10 for those glasses reflecting light behind me into my view.
Still waiting on word for a DVD release date. Haven't seen anything yet...my guess is that it will be out in April.