WoK was almost like a reboot of TMP if you think about it!

[The Rock]

It's almost as if the producers wanted to tell everyone, "HEY! The Wrath of Khan is the Star Trek movie we REALLY wanted all along! Forget about The Motion Picture!"

And by that I mean the only thing WoK has in common with TMP is that it uses the same ship. Other than that, everything is different about it: the costumes, the tone, the atmosphere, the lighting, and even the interior of the Enterprise.

I mean they almost seem like two entirely different universes to me (even though they take place in the same universe of course). In fact, TMP seems to look way more futuristic than WoK, if that even makes sense. We see technology in TMP that is never shown again in any of the other movies or shows (like the floating moving table that is seen in one of the hallways, for example).

So putting our own opinions of TMP aside, is the reason the producers did this for WoK because they were ashamed of how TMP turned out?

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I think it's been pretty well documented that Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett wanted complete separation from "The Motion Picture" and went about reconstructing Star Trek. When Nick was on Coast to Coast AM a couple months ago with Ian Punnett, Ian gave him tongue-in-cheek credit for being bold enough to essentially reboot Star Trek. Everything old was new again and I think the box office numbers and critical acclaim from fans alike would say that it worked.

 

[The Rock]

^ I think it's been pretty well documented that Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett wanted complete separation from "The Motion Picture" and went about reconstructing Star Trek. When Nick was on Coast to Coast AM a couple months ago with Ian Punnett, Ian gave him tongue-in-cheek credit for being bold enough to essentially reboot Star Trek. Everything old was new again and I think the box office numbers and critical acclaim from fans alike would say that it worked.

Ah I see. Well it's a good thing they didn't change the exterior of the Enterprise at all, because if they did then people might have really thought both movies took place in different universes, lol.

 

[SMC]

^Well, they might well have changed the Enterprise - if they'd had the budget. But Paramount allocated a very modest budget to the film which is why they brought in Bennett and his TV experience - where recycling existing sets and props was necessary to do things on a shoestring. I know ILM would much rather have designed and built a new Enterprise because I understand they detested the Ent-Refit model.

TWOK is pretty much a reboot, but it also isn't in that it is a direct sequel to an episode of the original series. It does very much ignore TMP though even as far as directly contradicting any character development that took place in that film. Kirk is having a midlife crisis... again, he wants to regain command of the Enterprise... again, he is feeling old and worn out... again.

I don't think anyone was *ashamed* of TMP as such - in absolute terms it made more money than TWOK but was less profitable because its budget was so much larger. Its just that a new producer was brought in who personally disliked TMP so obviously he'd go about making a movie that was as dissimilar to he film he disliked as possible. Nick Meyer for whatever reason seemed to have a vision for the project that clicked with what Bennett had in mind. The studio sidelined Roddenberry to the role of "consultant" mainly because it was percieved that he was responsible, as producer, for the production difficulties on the first film.

 

[The Rock]

TWOK is pretty much a reboot, but it also isn't in that it is a direct sequel to an episode of the original series. It does very much ignore TMP though even as far as directly contradicting any character development that took place in that film. Kirk is having a midlife crisis... again, he wants to regain command of the Enterprise... again, he is feeling old and worn out... again.

It's funny you mention about the "Kirk wanting to regain command of the Enterprise again" thing because that's something that always struck me as odd about WoK. The end of TMP implied that Kirk would indeed get to be captain of the Enterprise again. I'm pretty sure that if Roddenberry had as much control for WoK as he did for TMP, WoK would have started off with Kirk being in full command of the Enterprise.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I wish they would have had a real sequel to TMP, to be honest.

That said, I wish TMP's uniforms had the TOS color scheme, and the boots separate from the pants. I don't think I would have changed anything else, visually, about TMP.

 

[sonak]

My understanding was that a LONG time was supposed to have passed between TMP and TWOK which could be why the look and the situation is so different. Plus, Kirk is still and admiral and stuff, so it's not really a reboot, just a "we've moved on" sort of thing.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah a significant amount of time was supposed to have passed between the first movie and The Wrath of Khan. The Enterprise did get a relatively new look from the TMP bridge set. I never was a fan of the TMP refit bridge. TWOK is not a reboot in the traditional sense but it is a clear cut attempt to bring change to the franchise. As for a sequel for TMP...I think Christopher's novel "Ex Machina" is a pretty good follow up to TMP.

 

[Chaos Descending]

The thing is, TWOK works just fine as a direct sequel to TOS. As far as TWOK is concerned, TMP need never have happened.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I wish they would have had a real sequel to TMP, to be honest.

As do I.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I don't necessarily mean a continuation of the V'Ger story, but rather something that followed on from the TMP continuity, with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise on a deep space exploration mission. Something that was truly TOS on the big screen.

 

[sonak]

I don't necessarily mean a continuation of the V'Ger story, but rather something that followed on from the TMP continuity, with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise on a deep space exploration mission. Something that was truly TOS on the big screen.

I remember reading an article on that back in the day, about how the Trek movies were never really like the original show, just "boldly going" on some exploratory mission, encountering a new species, etc.

It was more like dealing with threats or crises, more took place on Earth, more politics involved, etc. Ironically, the most loathed one of the films, TFF may be the one most similar to TOS, in the sense of "random adventure story" where they journey into the unknown in the form of going beyond the Great Barrier.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I don't necessarily mean a continuation of the V'Ger story, but rather something that followed on from the TMP continuity, with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise on a deep space exploration mission.

That's pretty much what I thought you meant - and is the sentiment I agreed with!

 

[Chaos Descending]

Very good!

 

[Warped9]

It's almost as if the producers wanted to tell everyone, "HEY! The Wrath of Khan is the Star Trek movie we REALLY wanted all along! Forget about The Motion Picture!"

And by that I mean the only thing WoK has in common with TMP is that it uses the same ship. Other than that, everything is different about it: the costumes, the tone, the atmosphere, the lighting, and even the interior of the Enterprise.

I mean they almost seem like two entirely different universes to me (even though they take place in the same universe of course). In fact, TMP seems to look way more futuristic than WoK, if that even makes sense. We see technology in TMP that is never shown again in any of the other movies or shows (like the floating moving table that is seen in one of the hallways, for example).

So putting our own opinions of TMP aside, is the reason the producers did this for WoK because they were ashamed of how TMP turned out?

I have long believed this. And it was typical Hollywood thinking: throw everything away even if it ain't broken.

The problem with TMP had nothing to do with sets and costumes and what have you. It was a story that simply needed more dramatic oomph, more character drama and some tighter editing for better pace. That's it. Everything else was fine.

And, yes, TMP still looks good after all these years while the rest of the films aren't bad, but they don't impress one nearly as futuristic.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, TWOK could be considered a reboot, because there's no reason why the word "reboot" strictly has to mean "a different continuity," even if fandom has tended to adopt it as having that meaning. The people who run movie and TV studios couldn't care less about continuity; they're interested in the profitability of a series or franchise. In industry terms, a reboot is any revival of an old, moribund or unsuccessful idea that revitalizes it and makes it popular (and therefore profitable) again. That can be done by starting over with a new continuity, like Battlestar Galactica (the example that shaped fandom's perception of the word "reboot") or the Daniel Craig Bond movies, or it can be done by continuing an existing continuity with a fresh attitude and style, like Doctor Who. Some things can be betwixt and between; the recent Knight Rider revival series alleged to be a sequel to the original show, but often seemed to be more of a remake that contradicted details of the original.

In any case, the priority is injecting new audience appeal; continuity is a secondary concern. And that was the thinking behind TWOK. Frankly, its continuity is highly problematical; it has huge inconsistencies with "Space Seed," like Khan knowing Chekov; like Khan's followers being only in their 20s after having been stranded for 15 years and being all blond Aryans instead of the original multiethnic band; like Khan having a movie-era insignia medallion and a movie-era medical console in the survivors' compound even though they were stranded during the TOS era; like Kirk saying he'd "never faced death" despite losing Gary Mitchell, Edith Keeler, his brother Sam, his wife Miramanee, and his unborn child. They weren't interested in the kind of rigorous conformity to detail that obsesses fanboys, they were interested in creating an entertaining movie that was based on a fictional television franchise. And if that meant ignoring or rewriting bits of continuity, they saw no reason not to, because there wasn't yet a World Wide Web to concentrate all that fanboy obsession with continuity and detail.

So if TWOK's creators didn't feel obligated to stay rigorously consistent with the episode they were making a direct sequel to, they certainly wouldn't feel obligated to maintain any specific consistency with the previous movie, given the poor critical response to that movie. They reused its sets and stock footage to save money, but Bennett and Meyer were given free rein to bring their own creative vision to it. It was in fact considered something of a fresh start. (In the film's original release, it wasn't even titled Star Trek II, just Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan.)

 

[TrickyDickie]

Ironically, the most loathed one of the films, TFF may be the one most similar to TOS, in the sense of "random adventure story" where they journey into the unknown in the form of going beyond the Great Barrier.

Yes, it is most similar to TOS and that's why I like it best out of the first six Trek films.

The part at the end, with Sybok fighting 'himself,' reminded me of 'The Alternative Factor.'

It's that journey out into the unknown that I enjoy. TMP is my second favorite.

TUC was good, but kind of same old politics and factions.

TWOK, TSFS, and TVH was just old enemy, putting Spock back together while destroying the Enterprise, and a same old-same old threat to Earth. They were not bad, but they were sadly lacking in the area of boldly going, in my opinion.

Edit: As an aside, the script for TWOK was originally called 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture II.'

 

[The Overlord]

I don't necessarily mean a continuation of the V'Ger story, but rather something that followed on from the TMP continuity, with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise on a deep space exploration mission. Something that was truly TOS on the big screen.

I remember reading an article on that back in the day, about how the Trek movies were never really like the original show, just "boldly going" on some exploratory mission, encountering a new species, etc.

It was more like dealing with threats or crises, more took place on Earth, more politics involved, etc. Ironically, the most loathed one of the films, TFF may be the one most similar to TOS, in the sense of "random adventure story" where they journey into the unknown in the form of going beyond the Great Barrier.

That's because a TV show is different from a movie. A movie has to tell an epic tale, something that really tests the mettle of the characters, not just a two hour run of the mill Star Trek episode. That was the problem with Insurrection, it felt like a long episode of TNG rather then an cinematic epic. With a TV show you have time to tell more off beat stories, with a movie, you don't have that time.

 

[Galileo7]

Yeah a significant amount of time was supposed to have passed between the first movie and The Wrath of Khan. ...

That is the explaination for the changes between TMP and WOK. Like the changes between TOS "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

 

[sonak]

I don't necessarily mean a continuation of the V'Ger story, but rather something that followed on from the TMP continuity, with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise on a deep space exploration mission. Something that was truly TOS on the big screen.

I remember reading an article on that back in the day, about how the Trek movies were never really like the original show, just "boldly going" on some exploratory mission, encountering a new species, etc.

It was more like dealing with threats or crises, more took place on Earth, more politics involved, etc. Ironically, the most loathed one of the films, TFF may be the one most similar to TOS, in the sense of "random adventure story" where they journey into the unknown in the form of going beyond the Great Barrier.

That's because a TV show is different from a movie. A movie has to tell an epic tale, something that really tests the mettle of the characters, not just a two hour run of the mill Star Trek episode. That was the problem with Insurrection, it felt like a long episode of TNG rather then an cinematic epic. With a TV show you have time to tell more off beat stories, with a movie, you don't have that time.

I don't understand this criticism. First I don't think it's the case that a movie HAS to be epic, there are plenty of examples to the contrary. But at any rate, I didn't mean that TFF was less epic, just that it actually took Star Trek back to its roots, with exploring the unknown rather than dealing with politics, a battle with an old foe, rebelling against Starfleet etc.