Stealing Trek Literature

[Greg Cox]

Sometimes downloading eBooks is done because the publishers make it impossible to legally purchase the eBooks in the downloader's home country.

It may not be the publishers' choice. If the author or agent don't sell them world rights (which they often don't), the publisher CAN'T legally sell the book overseas.

The problem, of course, is that old-fashioned book contracts don't reflect the fact that the world is getting smaller by the day. But that doesn't change the fact that, contractually, territories are still divied up geographically, which is the way things have always been done. And agents who are accustomed to selling their author's rights individually all over the world, to the American market, to the British Commonweath, etcetera, have no real incentive to say, "Oh, what the hell, it's a brave new world. Go ahead and publish wherever you want. I'm sure our foreign partners won't mind . . . . "

Publishers often pay for exclusive rights to certain territories. And a smart agent sells the same book to multiple foreign publishers, each of whom expects sole dominion over their territory.

It's an antiquated system, granted, but we can't just ignore signed contracts because tech-savvy ebook readers think they're silly. Old-fashioned contracts are still legally binding.

 

[Deano2099]

And agents who are accustomed to selling their author's rights individually all over the world, to the American market, to the British Commonweath, etcetera, have no real incentive to say, "Oh, what the hell, it's a brave new world. Go ahead and publish wherever you want. I'm sure our foreign partners won't mind . . . . "

To play devil's advocate: "My author's book is pirated up the wazoo" might well be that incentive.

Though it has to be said, I've been able to import paperback books from the US via Amazon since forever and the world hasn't ended yet. It's not that we're merely not going forwards, we're going backwards. Amazon have been selling books worldwide for years now, suddenly it's all changing with ebooks.

 

[Greg Cox]

And agents who are accustomed to selling their author's rights individually all over the world, to the American market, to the British Commonweath, etcetera, have no real incentive to say, "Oh, what the hell, it's a brave new world. Go ahead and publish wherever you want. I'm sure our foreign partners won't mind . . . . "

To play devil's advocate: "My author's book is pirated up the wazoo" might well be that incentive.

Though it has to be said, I've been able to import paperback books from the US via Amazon since forever and the world hasn't ended yet. It's not that we're merely not going forwards, we're going backwards. Amazon have been selling books worldwide for years now, suddenly it's all changing with ebooks.

It's true. The old geographical boundaries have been crumbling for decades now. I've seen Tor books on sale in the UK that I know we didn't have British rights for. And US booksellers were importing the early Harry Potter books long before they were legally pubished in the US. And at some point, the system is probably going to have to be overhauled.

But, for the time being, we're still stuck with the old contracts and territories. I was just pointing out that publishers are not being deliberately perverse or obstinate when they don't make their books available overseas. In some cases, they may be contractually prohibited from doing so.

(Trust me, most US publishers would love to have world rights to all their titles. But often agents and licensors will only sell us American rights, in hopes of making separate sales overseas.)

 

[LightningStorm]

Sometimes downloading eBooks is done because the publishers make it impossible to legally purchase the eBooks in the downloader's home country.

It may not be the publishers' choice. If the author or agent don't sell them world rights (which they often don't), the publisher CAN'T legally sell the book overseas.

That doesn't seem to make sense though. If a publisher has exclusive rights in say the UK then why can a UK store sell and ship a paper book overseas? How are a paper book and e-book any different when it comes to a contract on selling and where it is sold.

If a paper book can be sold in a UK store and shipped over to the US (and vice-versa) then why can't an e-book? The problem is as JWolf said, that when you buy a paper book from the a UK site you are buying it "in the UK" where as if you buy an e-book from that same UK site you are buying it "in the country you are located in". Even though the transaction is exactly the same for both, which makes not a single lick of sense. Either you should be able to buy both and ship them to another country or you shouldn't be able to buy either.

It shouldn't matter how some old contract is worded unless it specifically declares paper books vs e-books and that they work differently. Since these contracts are old, they can't possibly say anything about e-books since the contract predates the technology.

 

[Scout101]

Expect this to go basically the way the music industry change went. Fight change and stick to the old model as long as possible. Along the way, blame everyone but yourself for not awknowledging that the old methods don't fit the new reality, and even attack your own potential customers for a while. After that doesn't work, and sales continue to slide, while piracy goes up, THEN think about maybe looking at the marketplace and taking a stab at providing the service that people have been trying to get you to offer for several years...

If you make it quick and easy, and at a price point that makes sense (rather than old models for price and distribution), people WILL default to paying you for it. iTunes made that pretty clear. Just as easy to pirate music now as it was 5 years ago, but iTunes took the hassle out of it, and isn't trying to gouge you too badly, so it's easier to just pay them the .99 cents rather than illegally download, possibly change formats, scan for viruses, etc.

 

[Defcon]

Another problem for non-English speaking countries like for example Germany is that those local rights usually are for a German version if I'm not mistaken, so if you want to read the English original of an eBook that is restricted that way, you're out of luck I guess.

 

[Greg Cox]

It shouldn't matter how some old contract is worded unless it specifically declares paper books vs e-books and that they work differently. Since these contracts are old, they can't possibly say anything about e-books since the contract predates the technology.

I'm not just talking about old contracts that have been gathering dust in the files for decades (although that is sometimes the case). I'm talking about current contracts that still spell out geographical territories just as they always have. If I buy a new novel tomorrow, I still have to haggle with the agent over what territories we can sell into, regardless of whether we're talking print books or ebooks. That's just how the legalities work.

And just because such restrictions may seem silly or old-fashioned in today's brave new world, that doesn't mean they still aren't legally binding. I don't think copyright lawyers accept "but that's just dumb" as a valid legal argument!

As for print books, I could be wrong, but my impression is that, technically, booksellers aren't supposed to sell books outside their territories, but, yeah, it's quietly tolerated because--back in the old days, before amazon and all--it wasn't a big deal. Importing a book from overseas was a hassle and most people didn't bother. It wasn't statistically significant.

(There's also the factor that it's not the publishers who are selling the books overseas, it's third-party booksellers. Once the physical books are out of our hands, we can't control who ships what where. But it's different if the publisher is directly distributing ebooks overseas. Then the agent would have valid grounds for claiming that we were exercising rights we hadn't paid for.)

Again, it's the problem that this stuff escalates on the digitial realm. It's the difference between an occasional book being shipped overseas as a special request, and the whole concept of exclusive geographical territories disappearing.

 

[LightningStorm]

As for print books, I could be wrong, but my impression is that, technically, booksellers aren't supposed to sell books outside their territories, but, yeah, it's quietly tolerated because--back in the old days, before amazon and all--it wasn't a big deal. Importing a book from overseas was a hassle and most people didn't bother. It wasn't statistically significant.

Again, it's the problem that this stuff escalates on the digitial realm. It's the difference between an occasional book being shipped overseas as a special request, and the whole concept of exclusive geographical territories disappearing.

That then makes sense that paper books aren't supposed to be sold that way either then. Because I don't think the regulations on that sound silly or even outdated at all. The problem is the lopsided nature in which they are being applied. Today it applies to e-books but not paper books which is the part that doesn't make sense.

Now, for the "special cases" and statistical insignificance of that happening, well, that's still the industry's problem, as they are the ones who've opened this door by not enforcing their rules and letting it get like this for paper books. I fail to have sympathy for an industry that decides not to enforce their rules to a point that they effectively don't even exist anymore then suddenly decide to start bitching about it for one instance but not another.

Statistical insignificance would also seem pretty irrelevant, since piracy is also currently statistically insignificant, yet everyone's complaining about that. Seems ridiculous that an industry is complaining about one statistically insignificant profit loss and not another both of which are "breaking the law".

 

[Deano2099]

It shouldn't matter how some old contract is worded unless it specifically declares paper books vs e-books and that they work differently. Since these contracts are old, they can't possibly say anything about e-books since the contract predates the technology.

I'm not just talking about old contracts that have been gathering dust in the files for decades (although that is sometimes the case). I'm talking about current contracts that still spell out geographical territories just as they always have. If I buy a new novel tomorrow, I still have to haggle with the agent over what territories we can sell into, regardless of whether we're talking print books or ebooks. That's just how the legalities work.

And just because such restrictions may seem silly or old-fashioned in today's brave new world, that doesn't mean they still aren't legally binding. I don't think copyright lawyers accept "but that's just dumb" as a valid legal argument!

As for print books, I could be wrong, but my impression is that, technically, booksellers aren't supposed to sell books outside their territories, but, yeah, it's quietly tolerated because--back in the old days, before amazon and all--it wasn't a big deal. Importing a book from overseas was a hassle and most people didn't bother. It wasn't statistically significant.

(There's also the factor that it's not the publishers who are selling the books overseas, it's third-party booksellers. Once the physical books are out of our hands, we can't control who ships what where. But it's different if the publisher is directly distributing ebooks overseas. Then the agent would have valid grounds for claiming that we were exercising rights we hadn't paid for.)

Again, it's the problem that this stuff escalates on the digitial realm. It's the difference between an occasional book being shipped overseas as a special request, and the whole concept of exclusive geographical territories disappearing.

Have had a look in to this, it's parallel importing basically, which seems to be legal in the US. It's not for books in Australia, but only if a local version is to be published within 30 days.

http://www.readersread.com/blog/1111091

I'm fairly sure Amazon wouldn't be selling books to international customers if they weren't allowed to. There are products on Amazon (PC and DS games, for example) that they will simply refuse to sell to me over in the UK.

The fact is, these big companies have always operated internationally, sourcing their components and manufacturing wherever in the world it is cheapest, but then wanting to restrict where the product can be sold. Now the consumer wants the same opportunity, and because of the internet we can get it, and they're getting quite upset.

And while I understand the legal arguement, as you say, just saying "that's silly" doesn't help. Whereas the moral position of "well if you're going to be unreasonable and not sell me the book, I'll be unreasonable and get a free copy instead" is certainly defendable as direct action.

Edited to add: actually I think there's more to it here too. It was in Amazon's interest (and most other online sellers of physical items) to sell the product internationally. They get a wider audience and the overall price is mostly the same as a local copy once you add in postage. For ebooks, Amazon and the other portals are selling directly (as agents of the publisher) and it's in their best interest to treat territories differently as with no postage costs everyone would just buy from where it's cheapest based on the exchange rates.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That doesn't seem to make sense though. If a publisher has exclusive rights in say the UK then why can a UK store sell and ship a paper book overseas? How are a paper book and e-book any different when it comes to a contract on selling and where it is sold.

I used to have a few letters from publishers/distributors in the 70s and 80s, the early days of my avid book collecting, that told me, "Unfortunately, we do not have the rights to import that book into Australia and your special order has been canceled." Several times, it would be about one title in a series; the remaindered titles had somehow made their way to bargain tables the world over, but certain titles were still unable to cross borders at full price.

This kind of thing happened to me on numerous occasions. As a young, keen book collector, such things made no sense, especially when I found a US penpal who could go to her local bookshop, buy the item and send it to me as "a gift", and I could send her instant pavlova sachets in return. (Ironically, white powder, which would probably cause a panic today.) The arrival of Amazon meant I didn't have to go through such agony, or jump through such tricky hoops. Those publishing restrictions often still apply to importing in bulk, but one copy to a lone individual slips through like a piece of ordinary mail.

Similarly, Amazon warns me very sternly, whenever I buy Region 1-coded DVDs, that they "may not function" on DVD players used in other countries. Australia has had multi-region players for decades now. You could buy a factory-set Region 4 player and enter a secret code to have it go back to multi-region format, or you could ask the store to reset it for you (some used to charge a fee). Then someone challenged the process in court and they won - much to the horror of Australian distributors, who still had binding contracts and international agreements for exclusive Region 4 sales, and yet individual members of the public could suddenly legally import Region 1 and Region 2 DVDs.

Again, when it was just a few early adopters doing it, the ripple effect was still minimal, but now more and more people don't think twice about Internet shopping. To just "allow" everyone to do it may have far-reaching effects on countries' economies. Wasn't Amazon's stated mission, when it started up, to ultimately be the one-stop bookshop for the whole world?

I sent a large parcel to the US at Christmas time and it was hit with a new charge: essentially it's to cover what costs might be incurred if it has to be checked at US Customs. Not that it will be checked, just in case it does get checked. Then, if there is duty to be paid, the recipient will get slugged a fee, too.

As I said earlier, the Australian retailers are suddenly baulking at individual customers avoiding Australian GST by ordering books, CDs, DVDs, furniture, white goods, digital music, eBooks, etc., online. Since there's no effective way to prevent such online ordering, I can see the governments reaction to this will ultimately be a charge on every imported piece of mail. Some kind of "user pays" system for all imports will probably have to happen, especially since regular mail has dwindled with the popularity of email, online banking, online billing for utilities, online bank statements and so on. But again, digital downloads have the potential to escape such a system, because they don't physically cross international borders.

To just continue to let it happen is just as shortsighted as the attempts to restrict it.

I'm fairly sure Amazon wouldn't be selling books to international customers if they weren't allowed to.

Actually, they can and do, but whose in charge of checking? The publishers would have to notice that their book is listed for sale to countries who can't have that edition. Is UK Customs supposed to have a list of every book legally allowed to be imported? Just not viable.

There are products on Amazon (PC and DS games, for example) that they will simply refuse to sell to me over in the UK.

Exactly, and many licensed tie-in toys as well, because it's relatively easy to stop all of one type - but general books are more difficult to restrict, even though their may well be book contracts out there being trampled upon. Licensed tie-in contracts are tighter and easier to police.

 

[Deano2099]

To just "allow" everyone to do it may have far-reaching effects on countries' economies.

While I think you're right, I don't think the effects have to be bad. It'll be big changes, it'll make some jobs redundant, some companies will fold and so on, but ultimately I think that not allowing people will be even worse, because piracy will happen anyway.

The new landscape doesn't have to be bad. You can still have small publishers, it just won't be done through geographic location anymore. Which I think is kind of great. Instead you'll get niche publishers specialising in certain genres and certain types of fiction, based all over the world, all with the ability to sell to a global market. The good ones will be separated from the bad by the quality of the work, and not the market they've managed to arrange an exclusive contract for.

Also I think you're under-estimating the size of the games industry - I can't buy a single game on Amazon.com, be it the biggest blockbuster from EA to the smallest indie title from a couple of bedroom coders (or an obscure game that never got a UK release at all). They're all blocked. I don't get why the games industry managed to make this happen, while the DVD and book industries haven't, if the laws are the same.

 

[Therin of Andor]

While I think you're right, I don't think the effects have to be bad. It'll be big changes, it'll make some jobs redundant, some companies will fold and so on.

And I haven't disagreed with you. The effects don't have to be "bad". In most of my posts in this thread, I've mentioned that the publishers are being cautious, watching each other carefully, testing the waters, experimenting - not just leaping into the eBook mire without being very mindful of their clients, the writers - because if the writers' rights get trampled on by this Brave New World then there won't be any writers wanting to attempt to make a living from writing.

People seem to be impatient. Impatient to own eBooks on the day the hardcopy version is published, no matter where they are in the world, in a format that will fit any electronic device, now and yet to be invented, and with no embedded coding. (And yet the precedent of reel-to-reel audio, 8-tracks, audio cassettes, U-matic video, Betamax, VHS, CD, DVD, DVD HD, Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray 3D, hasn't really made ease of format shifting a priority before.)

 

[BillJ]

While I think you're right, I don't think the effects have to be bad. It'll be big changes, it'll make some jobs redundant, some companies will fold and so on.

And I haven't disagreed with you. The effects don't have to be "bad". In most of my posts in this thread, I've mentioned that the publishers are being cautious, watching each other carefully, testing the waters, experimenting - not just leaping into the eBook mire without being very mindful of their clients, the writers - because if the writers' rights get trampled on by this Brave New World then there won't be any writers wanting to attempt to make a living from writing.

People seem to be impatient. Impatient to own eBooks on the day the hardcopy version is published, no matter where they are in the world, in a format that will fit any electronic device, now and yet to be invented, and with no embedded coding. (And yet the precedent of reel-to-reel audio, 8-tracks, audio cassettes, U-matic video, Betamax, VHS, CD, DVD, DVD HD, Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray 3D, hasn't really made ease of format shifting a priority before.)

I would say that the backwards compatibility that Blu-ray and HD-DVD offered in regards to DVD playback was due to the fact that customers wanted that 'ease of format shifting'.

 

[JWolf]

Sometimes downloading eBooks is done because the publishers make it impossible to legally purchase the eBooks in the downloader's home country.

It may not be the publishers' choice. If the author or agent don't sell them world rights (which they often don't), the publisher CAN'T legally sell the book overseas.

The problem, of course, is that old-fashioned book contracts don't reflect the fact that the world is getting smaller by the day. But that doesn't change the fact that, contractually, territories are still divied up geographically, which is the way things have always been done. And agents who are accustomed to selling their author's rights individually all over the world, to the American market, to the British Commonweath, etcetera, have no real incentive to say, "Oh, what the hell, it's a brave new world. Go ahead and publish wherever you want. I'm sure our foreign partners won't mind . . . . "

Publishers often pay for exclusive rights to certain territories. And a smart agent sells the same book to multiple foreign publishers, each of whom expects sole dominion over their territory.

It's an antiquated system, granted, but we can't just ignore signed contracts because tech-savvy ebook readers think they're silly. Old-fashioned contracts are still legally binding.

Since US publishers can sell paper books to people outside the USA, why can't they sell eBooks as well? It makes little to no sense that eBooks are treated as something everyone is going to steal. The customer gets treated like a criminal when we haven't done any thing wrong. Either they make point of sale for ALL books where they are sold from or they make it where they are bought from. But to have it both ways is stupid and wrong.

I feel that some people download eBooks for free just because the publishers are idiots. When it comes to eBooks they are. We have agency model, high prices, georestrictions, and DRM. They think we are going to steal the eBooks before we've even paid for it.

 

[JWolf]

Some piracy happens because some people are unwilling to pay the rediculously high prices for the eBook due to the agency model. So those sorts of downloads are not lost sales. Well, they are, but it's the publishers fault for going agency.

I'm not saying this is right. But it is what is.

 

[Lynx]

^ That's the way I see it: voting with my wallet. I'll download things illegally, occasionally, to try them (mostly music), but I either delete or purchase after that. That's probably not quite morally defensible, if I'm being honest, but I find written descriptions of music almost universally useless. I've bought more music as a result of being able to try it out, so to speak.

Anyway, if I really like something, I'll buy lots and give them to people. Vote with my wallet as often as possible. Four people got Destiny trilogies from me, for instance. And all enjoyed.

Here I agree with you. I wouldn't dream of downloading an Irom Maiden album. I want them complete with sleeve and everything, not to mention that I really think the band members deserve my hard-earned money for making my life a bit better and happier for many years.

The same for good books as well.

I must admit that there is one exception. If a certain record or book is out of print and I really want that one, then I start searching on those sites where I can download them and then I don't mind if it's illegal or not. If the record company or publisher want my money, then they have to have the products I want available too.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Since US publishers can sell paper books to people outside the USA, why can't they sell eBooks as well?

As several of us have said, it's not the publishers who are selling the books beyond contractual regions, it's a third party, eg. Amazon.

It makes little to no sense that eBooks are treated as something everyone is going to steal. The customer gets treated like a criminal when we haven't done any thing wrong.

It's simply easier to catch someone walking out of a shop with books in their pockets. Why else do stores and libraries put magnetic labels and filaments in their books and DVDs? Are you one of those people who refuse to open your bag upon leaving a shop? (Presuming this is a policy in your area?)

I feel that some people download eBooks for free just because the publishers are idiots. When it comes to eBooks they are. We have agency model, high prices, georestrictions, and DRM. They think we are going to steal the eBooks before we've even paid for it.

Again, why do stores and libraries put magnetic labels and filaments into their books and DVDs?

And if the publishers did nothing to protect their property, it would be total open slather, leading to bankruptcy.

 

[Greg Cox]

I feel that some people download eBooks for free just because the publishers are idiots. .

But my point was that sometimes the publishers aren't just being "idiots" for no reason.

These aren't just abstract arguments. Without naming names, I know of at least a couple of books that Tor cannot publish as ebooks because the authors' agents, for their own reasons, have not granted us the right to do so.

In such cases, it doesn't matter whether it "makes sense" or not, or how many people post indignantly on internet. We can't just go ahead and make the ebook available to everbody, in all territories, anyway. If we did, we'd be the pirates.

That's not being "idiots." That's honoring our contracts

 

[Scout101]

The flip side of that, though, is recognizing that you can't bitch about blood on the carpet if you shoot yourself in the foot.

If the industry is recognizing the problem, they should stop issuing those sorts of contracts. May take a while to phase out, but if they wanted to change, they could. They're just stuck in RIAA mode from about 2003, hoping a combination of strong rhetoric and digging in their heels will make the issue go away. If all new contracts reflect a new, better model, that will become industry standard pretty quickly. Authors with old contracts will probably mostly give in and change that contract if they notice that everyone with the new ebook friendly contracts is doing better. I mean, withholding the Beatles music from iTunes was all well and good for a while, but after a point, you're only hurting yourselves, and missing out on sales.

If they want to insist on silly rules and outdated structures for doing business, they're going to have to accept a certain amount of loss for people that aren't going to follow those rules.

Eventually, they'll figure out that if you actually try to work with the customer to give them what they want, it'll work out a lot better than TELLING them what they want, and getting pissy when there's resistance...

 

[Therin of Andor]

If the industry is recognizing the problem, they should stop issuing those sorts of contracts. May take a while to phase out, but if they wanted to change, they could.

Well, new contracts for TV series now mention royalties due from release of the series on DVD - and media that is not even invented yet. Actors signing to TV series in the 50s, 60s and 70s never dreamed that their old shows would be able to be repeated ad nauseum, let alone be released in a format that permitted individual members of the public to own their own copies of the work.

You can guarantee that new book contracts, ever since eBooks were mooted, do specify things like translation of the work into audio and eBook, not just sales to overseas book markets, TV and motion picture but, if these contracts are too broad, or too restrictive, authors will/may be very reluctant to sign, esp. if a different, rival publisher is offering something totally different, perhaps seemingly more cash up front but a lot less in potential royalties?

So yes, contracts do change with the trends, as does legislation, just much slower. Writers anxious for their next sale end up signing disadvantageous contracts all the time. Agents supposedly ensure that don't sign their life away.

I'm not sure any of us can predict what will end up happening. There are going to be winners and losers, and the hope is that pirates and bootleggers won't be the winners.

actually try to work with the customer to give them what they want

So what does "the customer" want? Customers of some bootleggers and pirates don't seem to want to pay anything.

I've been told that's not true. But will people who are doing it for free now ever be willing to pay? Some. Not all.