Why does The Final Frontier get so much crap?

[Nardpuncher]

I really would have sworn to God this was an old thread.

The thing I find funny is that there are enough people that seem to be shocked that most people don't like TFF, INS and NEM.
If you like it, great, but don't be surprised that most don't.

 

[sbk1234]

Speaking as someone who likes these movies to varying degrees, I'm not shocked that people don't like these films. I completely respect all people's right to opinion, and realize that we will not all agree. That's fine, and can make for some wonderfully stimulating discussion. Nor will I argue why people should like it. That's my opinion, not necessarily yours.
However, what I'm bothered by is when there is an assumption that all people should dislike these particular films, or extreme terminology such as "total crap" being used to describe them.

 

[CaptainStoner]

A review I found somewhere a while back showed an underlying theme to STV which explains most of its problems. In STV, it's Kirk against the World. Almost everyone and everything is portrayed as incompetent and stupid, including Starfleet and the Enterprise itself.
A lot of the "humor" is otherwise veteran officers being completely stupid. Scotty walking into the bulkhead, Uhura's mangling of the Klingon translations, Chekov and Sulu on Earth, Spock interrupting and scaring Kirk while he's halfway up a sheer rock face. It's the TOS crew meets the Three Stooges. If you take it as such, you can get past that I guess. I personally hate those scenes, and don't find them funny. Well, maybe it's a little funny when Spock pops up on the rocket boots and says "Greetings Captain". But it's Looney Tunes.
I like the basic underlying story of V and wish it had been developed a lot more, and done without the 3 Stooges comedy.

Compare that to the humor of IV, in which the supporting cast are at times silly, but competent.

* ok I will give humorous props to Spock nerve-pinching a horse.

 

[Anticitizen]

I thought the humor in The Voyage Home was more deprecating to the characters than in The Final Frontier.

Chekov gets called a retard, wacky Sulu accidentally triggers the windshield wipers, Spock nerve-pinches a punk and employs profanity, Scotty talks to a computer mouse, etc.

Not exactly highbrow gags. They just happened to be funnier gags.

 

[DonIago]

They were also relatively easily justified with, "the characters are out of their element." How easily would a contemporary human handle technology from the 1700's? Granted it's more simplistic than modern stuff, but I'm sure we could make humans of that era laugh as we embarrassed ourselves with whatever they considered commonplace.

 

[Warped9]

I can't excuse most of the humour in either TVH or TFF. They both used humour to laugh at the characters rather than contextually as had been done in TOS for us to laugh with the characters.

 

[nightwind1]

I can't excuse most of the humour in either TVH or TFF. They both used humour to laugh at the characters rather than contextually as had been done in TOS for us to laugh with the characters.

Exactly. There's no way in HELL Scotty would crack his noggin on something aboard his ship, he know Starfleet ships far too well.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I can't excuse most of the humour in either TVH or TFF. They both used humour to laugh at the characters rather than contextually as had been done in TOS for us to laugh with the characters.

I felt the humour in TVH flowed gently and embryonically from the script for the most part - naturalistic and rather enjoyable.

Unfortunately - this spwaned what I call the "humour monster" which reared its sometimes extremely ugly head to a greater of lesser degree in subsequent films.

The "laughs" in TFF are shoehorned, awkward and often quite embarrassing to watch - with TPTB obviously desperate to include "gags" in a vain attempt to recapture the success of TVH, even when totally unnecessary and inappropriate to the script.

 

[Pauln6]

I think the plot was no worse than many polts from TOS but many fans felt by that point that some of the cheesier elements of Trek belonged in the sixties. I didn't mind most of the humour although the camping scenes were excrutiating. I didn't mind Uhura being given a bit more to do - Nichelle is perfectly capable of doing comedy justice. I do think the movie is lamentably sexist but they pretty much all are.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

the camping scenes were excrutiating.

I thought they were the highlight of the movie! For me, they captured the very essence of the Kirk/Spock/Bones relationship perfectly.

 

[Warped9]

After all these years I can't recall specifics, but I do recall reading Trek fiction from the '80s that often put the familiar characters in more casual settings. At the time I felt that many of those efforts seemed forced or out of place, much like the camping scenes of TFF. It's silly really because of course these officers in their off-duty time would have casual interests and pursuits.

One thing I absolutely HATED was making the 1701A a lemon. I felt this was a very bad attempt at humour. Indeed from that point on I could never really accept the A as the Enterprise. It became pretty much just another piece of hardware (and I really disliked the beige like motif of the A's bridge). That said I'm still not entirely convinced it was necessary to destroy the original Enterprise.

 

[Jon1701]

One thing I absolutely HATED was making the 1701A a lemon. I felt this was a very bad attempt at humour. Indeed from that point on I could never really accept the A as the Enterprise.

This is perhaps the worst idea in TFF, worse than looking for God. I seem to recall shatner saying that counterposed to the hotel-esque TNG, it would be funny to fly around in an Enterprise where nothing worked.

I'll accept that they'd send out a ship that wasn't ready, but doors that don't open? Squeaky chairs? Stuttering computer "red, red, red alert, floor level, floor level, floor level)? But why the hell does the captains log not work? Whats that got to do with anything? Its like the ship has a virus or something. I'm suprised they even dared go to warp in a ship so bad.

Having said that...

I don't mind The Final Frontier at all. For all the reasons that have been noted before. The friendship of Kirk, Spock and McCoy seems as real as it had been since the series. Indeed the whole film seems like a big budget version of an episode of the original series (albeit a 3rd season one). Sadly all the other characters are just window dressing, the klingon is a cardboard cut out and the effects are weak.

But, you know, the film entertains me. I like the scene at the end too.

 

[Ssosmcin]

99% of what was wrong with Star Trek V could have been fixed by a writer who had Paramount's backing to tell Shatner to sit down and stay out of the story. It was Shatner's dream plot point to have Kirk be the "one man alone" against everyone else. That works when you have brand new characters you can mold to be this way. It doesn't work with a crew that is established as being fiercely loyal to Kirk. Also, there's a very jarring move away from the aging man past his prime to a much larger than life, mountain scaling superman.

The humor, as noted, was really lowbrow, and is a marked drop in the maturiy of the films. I mean, couldn't Kirk react to Spock's half brother revelation in another way than as an eight year old arguing with his playground pal? Spock and Sybok being related is a hard enough pill to swallow as it is, but playing it straight would have lent credibility to it. The problem is, they milk gags. If Kirk had simply said "you made that up" the laugh would have been great. But he takes it further and it's no longer amusing. Had he snapped into seriousness, it would have been a strong scene. Instead, it's just another platform for more toilet jokes. What I loved about the humor in Treks II and III was they they were there to ffset the grim events surrounding them. That's what character humor does. Thanks to TVH, Trek's humor went overboard, even in the 6th film. Lots of stupid jokes there.

What makes this film really sloppy is that there was PLENTY of time to get this story polished. They had a long delay while waiting for Nimoy to finish shooting The Good Mother, so what does Shatner do? He writes Tekwar rather than hone his screenplay. And it's not like it needed a page one rewrite. A lot of the story's problems are very easily fixed.

 

[Listener4]

Trek 5 has many flaws and they have discussed many times. But I still enjoy it and think it's not nearly as bad as some claim.

 

[starfox]

I bought the "special collector's edition" DVD for TFF, but only so I'd have the complete set; I don't plan to ever remove the cellophane.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I bought the "special collector's edition" DVD for TFF, but only so I'd have the complete set; I don't plan to ever remove the cellophane.

No offence, starfox, but I've seen this type of comment quite a lot. My question is - WHY?!! If you don't like the movie, and don't intend to watch it, why spend your hard earned cash on it? I just can't see the point. If you're that embarrassed about it, surely you won't want anyone to see it sitting on your shelf?

Why not buy something you really want and save yourself the "pain" (Sybok, we need you) of owning such a terrible product. Jeez, I like Coke, but hate the Cherry variety, I certainly don't buy cans of it to sit untouched in my kitchen through "brand loyalty"!

 

[starfox]

I bought the "special collector's edition" DVD for TFF, but only so I'd have the complete set; I don't plan to ever remove the cellophane.

No offence, starfox, but I've seen this type of comment quite a lot. My question is - WHY?!! If you don't like the movie, and don't intend to watch it, why spend your hard earned cash on it? I just can't see the point. If you're that embarrassed about it, surely you won't want anyone to see it sitting on your shelf?

I'm slightly OCD. At least I didn't pay full price for it. Maybe I can give the whole set to a friend someday.

 

[Utopianvista]

TFF is better than Nemesis and Abrams Trek.

If you look at the movie as a campfire story, and not an actual real event, it works. About the only way it works but it can be fun in the right mood.

 

[Ryann866]

Say what you want about the filmmaking as a whole but at it's core Trek V at least tried to be about something -- "maybe God's not out there, maybe he's in here..." A quality most of Enterprise and especially Trek 2009 seemed to put on the back burner in exchanged for cool FX and titillation.

Sure, it's execution can be debated forever, but I will argue that the section of that scene in the observation lounge with Kirk urging Bones "...you know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand..." is one of the best written, best Shatner performed Trek scenes there is.

The concept of a fundamentalist converting followers into hijacking a ship for a religious crusade would probably resonate more powerfully in today's world context as well.

If done the right way, that is...

 

[Warped9]

Say what you want about the filmmaking as a whole but at it's core Trek V at least tried to be about something -- "maybe God's not out there, maybe he's in here..." A quality most of Enterprise and especially Trek 2009 seemed to put on the back burner in exchanged for cool FX and titillation.

Sure, it's execution can be debated forever, but I will argue that the section of that scene in the observation lounge with Kirk urging Bones "...you know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand..." is one of the best written, best Shatner performed Trek scenes there is.

The concept of a fundamentalist converting followers into hijacking a ship for a religious crusade would probably resonate more powerfully in today's world context as well.

If done the right way, that is...

Yep. Fair enough.