Star Wars Clone Wars SPOILERS from Lucas/Stewart interview

[FordSVT]

The fact that neither the Jedi or the Republic have stepped in to smack it down says something about both groups.

Yeah, that they don't think they're the rulers of the universe. Imagine that.

Or they're Core-Centric, elitest [sic] a-holes that think "Freedom and justice" only extend so far. Rather than deal with the problems underlying a lot of the Republic's rot, they've adopted a "not in my backyard, so I don't care" approach.

As I said, it's dishonest to paint them as clean in this.

Not to get too off-topic, but I assume you'd support the US military galavanting around the world for the next 50 years attempting to "clean up the immorality of the world"? Africa, Asia, South/Central America, wherever the "bad guys" are. Yes?

Like it or not, there are political boundaries in the SWU and the Jedi don't run around to every backwater planet bringing revolution. There are thousands or even millions of planets and trillions of beings, how exactly are they supposed to help everyone, everywhere?

 

[SeerSGB]

Yeah, that they don't think they're the rulers of the universe. Imagine that.

Or they're Core-Centric, elitest [sic] a-holes that think "Freedom and justice" only extend so far. Rather than deal with the problems underlying a lot of the Republic's rot, they've adopted a "not in my backyard, so I don't care" approach.

As I said, it's dishonest to paint them as clean in this.

Not to get too off-topic, but I assume you'd support the US military galavanting around the world for the next 50 years attempting to "clean up the immorality of the world"? Africa, Asia, South/Central America, wherever the "bad guys" are. Yes?

Like it or not, there are political boundaries in the SWU and the Jedi don't run around to every backwater planet bringing revolution. There are thousands or even millions of planets and trillions of beings, how exactly are they supposed to help everyone, everywhere?

As I've on multiple occasions, I won't discuss my politics in this forum. You want me to PM you my answer, just let me know.

 

[Set Harth]

Baby Ludi was not allowed to return to the custody of his rightful guardian, a biological parent.

Baby Poopsie was not taken from Baby Poopsie's home.

Further, given the Jedi propensity for "changing" the minds of other sentients as it suits their needs, how can ANYONE be sure that the cases where parental consent WAS obtained were free of coercion?

The appeal to ignorance fallacy does not constitute evidence.

The "allegation" is fact. Period. Full stop.

"How can ANYONE be sure" is mere speculation, and not a fact. Period. Full stop.

Let's assume it WAS just Baby Ludi.

Then the allegation that Jedi take kids from their homes without their parents' consent is in fact a false allegation. Ultimately the legend of Baby Poopsie is just canon sabotage by some SWI writer whose work wasn't approved by Lucas.

The EU is, like it or not, part of the SW universe per the Lucasfilm rules of canon.

There are two worlds here. There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. - Lucas

You will see at some point in the future that the Jedi have the same relationship to the Republic; they're like public servants, they're like marshals or policemen. They basically do what they're told to do. They're not independent agents who can do whatever they want. - Lucas

Yes, it did. The Jedi losing their connection to the Force is mentioned in both AOTC and ROTS and hinted at somewhat in TPM.

But it's not said to be the result of arrogance.

Obi-Wan himself does it in AOTC.

Yes, clearly a terrible moral failing. I was talking about the "fraud".

Only in your twisted mind, which has apparently lost all touch with reality.

No, you actually did try to paint the Jedi as morally wrong for using mind tricks in their struggle to defeat the forces of evil.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Might as well should change the title of this thread to Set Hath and Darkwing Duck1's personal Star Wars philosophy debate.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Baby Ludi was not allowed to return to the custody of his rightful guardian, a biological parent.

Baby Poopsie was not taken from Baby Poopsie's home.

LUDI...say it with me...L...U...D...I. "Ludi".

And hair splitting only makes you look more pathetic. His home is where his family is. He was taken from his family and not returned when they asked for him back. Thus he was taken from his home.

Further, given the Jedi propensity for "changing" the minds of other sentients as it suits their needs, how can ANYONE be sure that the cases where parental consent WAS obtained were free of coercion?

The appeal to ignorance fallacy does not constitute evidence.

It's a logical inference from their past pattern of behavior.

And the fact remains: Baby Ludi's mother asked for her child back. The Jedi refused and went out of their way to take him even further away from her.

They are baby-nappers.
"How can ANYONE be sure" is mere speculation, and not a fact. Period. Full stop.

The events that are documented ARE canon. They happened. They are NOT speculation.

Then the allegation that Jedi take kids from their homes without their parents' consent is in fact a false allegation.

See above.

You will see at some point in the future that the Jedi have the same relationship to the Republic; they're like public servants, they're like marhsals or policemen. They basically do what they're told to do. They're not independent agents who can do whatever they want. - Lucas

What they do do puts the lie to that statement. Unless you want the Republic to be as quilty as they are of violating the rights of parents and sentient beings in general.

But it's not said to be the result of arrogance.

Arrogance is the essence of blindness. In order to truly see, one must have clarity and humbleness of mind to accept what IS, rather than see what one wants to see. The Jedi's certitude in their own righteousness kept them from looking for the Dark Side influence in their own lives, let alone in Palpatine's schemes, and cost them their Force connection.

No, you actually did try to paint the Jedi as morally wrong for using mind tricks in their struggle to defeat the forces of evil.

When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one one's self, as the saying goes.

To dominate another person, to deprive them of free will, is the essence of Darkness. In life or death situations, it MIGHT be justified. But not the routine way Jedi like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were shown to use it in the PT.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Quoting Lucas when enforcing one's argument is probably not a good idea considering all of the contradictory comments he has made over the years regarding his creation.

 

[Set Harth]

When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one one's self, as the saying goes.

Circular reasoning: moral equivalence cast as proof of itself.

The Jedi's certitude in their own righteousness kept them from looking for the Dark Side influence in their own lives, let alone in Palpatine's schemes, and cost them their Force connection.

More of the same. The rise of the dark side is in large part due to the Sith ( or at least that's what the all-important canon tells us, as opposed to rewrites ). The Force is balanced in ROTJ, not ROTS.

He was taken from his family and not returned when they asked for him back.

Still just the same old lie. Baby Poopsie wasn't taken from Baby Poopsie's home or family. ( In your preferred rewrite, things may have turned out a little differently. )

...."he"?

It's a logical inference from their past pattern of behavior.

One supposed incident is not a "pattern of behavior". Speculation is not "fact".

The events that are documented ARE canon. They happened. They are NOT speculation.

When you put that "s" on the end of a word, it means plural. The EVENTS didn't happen. Anything beyond the Baby Poopsie Experience is just speculation and wishful thinking.

In life or death situations, it MIGHT be justified.

It's not like Palpatine's schemes threatened anyone with death.

The Jedi's certitude in their own righteousness

You mean the same Jedi that admitted they were "too sure of themselves"?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

When fighting monsters, one must take care not to become one one's self, as the saying goes.

Circular reasoning: moral equivalence cast as proof of itself.

No, cautionary parable. The point is that starting to do Dark things risks you becoming Dark eventually from the doing.

Put another way: Power corrupts. Don't want to be corrupted BY power? Refrain from USING power, esp when it isn't justified by circumstances.

The Jedi's certitude in their own righteousness kept them from looking for the Dark Side influence in their own lives, let alone in Palpatine's schemes, and cost them their Force connection.

More of the same. The rise of the dark side is in large part due to the Sith ( or at least that's what the all-important canon tells us, as opposed to rewrites ). The Force is balanced in ROTJ, not ROTS.

The Sith are destroyed (temporarily) in ROTJ, but the force is far from balanced. Balance means balance, not all of one thing and none of the other. Having all Light Side Force users is no more "balanced" than having all Dark Siders. True balance is in the middle, it is Grey, as some EU sources describe it.

Still just the same old lie. Baby Poopsie wasn't taken from Baby Poopsie's home or family. ( In your preferred rewrite, things may have turned out a little differently. )

Was Baby LUDI returned to his/her mother when she requested it?

NO.

Did the Jedi have any legal authority to refuse to return Baby Ludi?

Undetermined. They certainly had no MORAL authority, esp if, as you insist, a child could only be taken by the consent of his/her parents. In order for that to be true, then Baby Ludi would have been returned, since Mom DID NOT CONSENT.

One supposed incident

One DOCUMENTED incident. There is no supposition. The baby was taken and not returned.

is not a "pattern of behavior"

No, it is PART of a pattern of behavior including the use of mind-control on free sentients, fraud and deception.

In life or death situations, it MIGHT be justified.

It's not like Palpatine's schemes threatened anyone with death.

And Palpatine's schemes included a parts merchant just trying to make a living, and an Andorian look-alike alien selling intoxicants in a bar...

The Jedi's certitude in their own righteousness

You mean the same Jedi that admitted they were "too sure of themselves"?[/QUOTE]

Yoda and a few of the masters saw it, the others didn't.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Some actual news to report...Quinlan Vos seems to be making his way to the Clone Wars...here's his action figure!

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/Quinlan_Vos_To_Join_The_Clone_Wars_133565.asp

 

[SeerSGB]

Some actual news to report...Quinlan Vos seems to be making his way to the Clone Wars...here's his action figure!

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/Quinlan_Vos_To_Join_The_Clone_Wars_133565.asp

IRC, not the first Vos figure. I think there was one released as part of the "comic & figure-two packs" a while a back.

This is one character I really hope isn't to close to his comics version. I really don't like the guy in the comics, and I think we don't another "gray" Jedi mucking about.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think he'd make a good counterpart to Ventress myself...

 

[SeerSGB]

I think he'd make a good counterpart to Ventress myself...

I think Ventress and Obi-Wan work better, myself. She actually works better with Obi-Wan than she did with Anakin in the original Clone Wars shorts. Especially the sort "flirting" banter they had going in some of their duels.

Of course I think the show is getting a little off the track here and there lately. To much focus on side-characters. After all it is, supposedly, Anakin's rise and fall.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Season Three looks like it will get things back on track...I read somewhere that Filoni thinks there could be five seasons and it echos what Lucas has stated before the series aired that there would be five seasons or a 100 episodes. I've been catching up on Season Two and it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

 

[DarthPipes]

I think he'd make a good counterpart to Ventress myself...

I think Ventress and Obi-Wan work better, myself. She actually works better with Obi-Wan than she did with Anakin in the original Clone Wars shorts. Especially the sort "flirting" banter they had going in some of their duels.

Of course I think the show is getting a little off the track here and there lately. To much focus on side-characters. After all it is, supposedly, Anakin's rise and fall.

I have to admit, I get a kick out of all the sexual innuendo that Obi-Wan and Ventress throw in each other's direction.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yep...it's pretty funny. I enjoy their lightsaber battles. I actually really enjoy James Arnold Taylor's portrayal of Obi-Wan in the Clone Wars...as well as Matt Lanter's confident but aggressive Anakin.

 

[SeerSGB]

My Opinion: Clone Wars Anakin is much closer to what I always had in mind as the type of person Anakin was (basically Luke, but a lot more cocky, self assured, does what he thinks is right at the moment not necessarily worried about the long term outcome; what Luke could have been had Owen not been there to temper his ) than the live action Anakin (which turned into a Emo a-hole)

 

[Admiral_Young]

^Exactly what I've said in many previous posts regarding the character and the PT. He just comes across exactly how you put it in the Clone Wars trilogy...and if Ahoska dies at the end which seems to be indirectly hinted by Filoni's over dramatic responses to the question it would explain why Anakin is a little more haunted at the beginning of episode III. Sure he trades banter with Obi-Wan when they're assaulting Grevious's ship and rescuing the Chancellor but I always felt that he still was more dark and sorrowful. I'm obviously leaning into things that aren't there yet but what the fuck...until we see how Ahsoka's arc runs out and her fate it's all just speculation. At first I thought that Lucas and Filoni might allow her to somehow survive...i.e. lost in a battle in the outer rim and somehow separated from her Master and Anakin doesn't know it and thinks she's did which is why she's not mentioned or she dies. Filoni has been quoted as stating let Ahoska be your guide in the series, you'll know what timeframe it is based on her.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I think he'd make a good counterpart to Ventress myself...

I think Ventress and Obi-Wan work better, myself. She actually works better with Obi-Wan than she did with Anakin in the original Clone Wars shorts. Especially the sort "flirting" banter they had going in some of their duels.

Of course I think the show is getting a little off the track here and there lately. To much focus on side-characters. After all it is, supposedly, Anakin's rise and fall.

The movies do a good enough job of that. I LIKE the "side trips" about the clone troopers, other Jedi, etc.

 

[Whofan]

^She was kind of Obi-Wan's nemesis in the Star Wars comics as well that featured her.


I have a theory that "Clone Wars" might in fact take place in an alternate Star Wars universe, as the trailer seems to indicate "Many possible futures there are". Given that it's already overriden a lot of what was previously established about the Clone Wars in the old 'toon, comics and novels and pretty much wiped out the whole "It's all canon!" argument LFL uses, I can't help but wonder if they'd be brave enough to have this be a storyline that doesn't end with the events in Revenge of the Sith, but instead creates a new SW story on it's own tangent. Probably not going to happen, though.

 

[Admiral_Young]

An interesting theory but I'm pretty sure that George and Dave have already stated that the Clone Wars takes place in the established canon...