Guinan in Trek 12?

[F. King Daniel]

Re: The Price Of The Pheonix

As for Guinan thinking the timeline is all wrong: Since this is an alternate universe (not just an alternate timeline), I don't think she'd notice.

The difference between "alternate universe" and "alternate timeline" is a word, nothing more. They're pretty interchangable.

What happened in both stories was the same, except in "Yesterday's Enterprise" the ship-out-of-time went forward instead of back. Even the thing it popped out of looked similar.


As for Whoopie liking BSG over Trek, I'm disappointed (I personally can't stand BSG, and think Trek should never be anything like it in any way, shape or form), but each to their own. Anyone got a link to what she said?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I love Trek for being hopeful, for daring to be bright. I also happen to love BSG for being what I consider high-stakes, powerful and compelling character drama with beautiful visual effects and some top-notch humor. *shrug*

 

[YARN]

Re: The Price Of The Pheonix

As for Whoopie liking BSG over Trek, I'm disappointed (I personally can't stand BSG, and think Trek should never be anything like it in any way, shape or form), but each to their own. Anyone got a link to what she said?

I am pretty sure it was when she interviewed Edward James Olmos and Mary McConnell on The View.

I found a link at http://battlestargalactica.contentquake.com/2009/01/

but the embedded YouTube clip was removed because of a terms of service violation.

If not on The View, it may have been during an aside during the whole BSG goes to the United Nations things when Whoopi moderated the panel, but I am pretty sure it was on The View.

To be fair, Whoopi was the one acting in the role of "host" and hosts are expected to be gracious and praise their guests.

Moreover, I don't recall her saying that Trek was terrible per se, but rather that it never came close to the sort of story telling achieved in BSG. If one agrees with her on this point, and there are many who do, then it isn't really a diss.

The thing that got me was the impression that she, as a cast member of TNG was offering reluctant/inside/authentic testimony to the "fact" that BSG was head and shoulders above anything Trek ever did. And this seemed to me to be a rather unfair and summary dismissal of, at least, some of the important and morally engaging stories told on Trek on the part of a rather minor player one iteration of that show. The only one with the right to say something like that IMO would be someone like a Gene Roddenberry or D.C. Fontana.

It's not that big a deal, but all things being equal I would not feel inclined to give someone a part as a kind of favor or revival of a character if the actor really did not feel all that strongly about the character or the world in which that character lives.

But again, if I sincerely believed that Guinan was essential or even a surefire bet to make the film solid entertainment, I would be all for her returning.

The quibble I bring up here is a sort of weak tie-breaker since her inclusion wouldn't seem to count that much either way.

The most important question, however, is whether the character would add anything to the next film. I don't see how it would be called for, or fitting (you'd kind of have to shoe-horn it in like Spock-Prime's arrival), or of particular value to make it worth the effort.

 

[NuFan]

Well, BSG was better. That's not a controversial thing to say. But no, people in the new universe should not look exactly they did in the old universe. Nimoy could get away with it because he actually was from the old universe. But Pike looks different, Kirk looks different, everybody looks different in the new universe. Any repeating characters should be played by different actors, so as to be internally consistent.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Good point!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, BSG was better.

On that, we will never ever, ever, ever, ever agree

Anyway, I vaguely recall reading that an episode of Enterprise was written (for the cancelled season 5), that would have brought back Whoopie as Guinan, under a different name, as the aide to the President of Earth or somesuch in the 22nd century.

 

[JTAC]

No, even with a ton of makeup I don't think Whoopie could pull off an earlier version of herself. Maybe if they got a different actress, but then it would seem like they are just sticking these characters in to link it with the older series and films.

 

[Roberta Lincoln]

She could have a small cameo -- more or less like she did in TNG. I think fans would like it.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

That was in the pipelines, KingDaniel. I would have looked forward to it.

 

[UFO]

Well, BSG was better.

On that, we will never ever, ever, ever, ever agree

Indeed. I have never been a fan of pseudo gritty, "deep and meaning nonsense" that takes itself far too seriously.

Granted, I can only stand watching 5 minute segments of the new BSG at a time, so I may have missed something profound, but to me it comes across as Days of Our Lives in space. The DVD covers seem to give a good indication of what you are really getting.

Same problem with Star Gate: Universe unfortunately. Anyway, far too dark and depressing for my taste. Perhaps most people prefer soap opera to space opera?

By the way, I was tempted to write something that might have been mildly offensive to the taste challenged majority, but I restrained myself, as you can tell.

... Pike looks different, Kirk looks different, everybody looks different in the new universe. Any repeating characters should be played by different actors, so as to be internally consistent.

Consistently inconsistent (with the original)! I love it.

... but then it would seem like they are just sticking these characters in to link it with the older series and films.

Well, she's part of the new universe as much as anyone else. But as you imply, she wasn't part of TOS. Is anyone sick of Easter Eggs or do you still have a planet or two you feel needs moving a little to the left?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Guinan worked in TNG because she had onscreen chemistry with Picard. She would not work with any other captain.

 

[UFO]

Guinan worked in TNG because she had onscreen chemistry with Picard. She would not work with any other captain.

If so, that would appear to be that, but its a strange attitude for an actor to have.

I thought she was an ST fan and offered to be involved, or am I thinking of someone else?

Anyway, I would have thought Whoopi was brighter than to say something like: "Gee I love your show. Its much better than that thing I used to do!". Shame we don't have a transcript. Perhaps her history just came up in conversation and one thing lead to another.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Guinan worked in TNG because she had onscreen chemistry with Picard. She would not work with any other captain.

If so, that would appear to be that, but its a strange attitude for an actor to have.

Well actually I meant that she "worked" in the sense that "it worked out" - i.e. if the writers had had Guinan guest star on DS9 (with Sisko) or even Voyager (with Janeway), it wouldn't have worked out so well. Not that Whoopi would refuse to appear with anyone else. Although now that she's said what she just said, I'm not so sure.

I thought she was an ST fan and offered to be involved, or am I thinking of someone else?

Yeah, that's what I always thought as well.

 

[YARN]

I thought she was an ST fan

No one has argued that she isn't a fan of Star Trek.

She merely has expressed the opinion that BSG is much better than Star Trek, that in essence BSG has more to be proud of in terms of story-telling.

Depending on your point of view, that might or might not be taken as a diss.

From my point of view,

because BSG was, in many ways, on a mission to be the antithesis of Trek (i.e., they were going to do sci-fi better by being the opposite of Trek's narrative conventions),

because I don't see BSG as the best sci-fi show ever (the first two seasons were pretty good though),

because Whoopi should not really claim to speak for Trek as a whole,

because she appeared to indicate that BSG was so much better than Trek,

I took it to be a slight diss - your mileage may vary - and as a result it (for me) functions as a weak tie-breaker (all other things held equal) why I would not jump at the chance of including her in the next film. It is, admittedly, a weak reason, but a reason nonetheless.

I am not aware of Whoopi making any strong or direct disses against Trek - just to set the record straight.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No one has argued that she isn't a fan of Star Trek.

She merely has expressed the opinion that BSG is much better than Star Trek

That is, IMHO, a contradiction in terms.

because she appeared to indicate that BSG was so much better than Trek,

I took it to be a slight diss

Me too.

 

[darkshadow0001]

No. There's no need.

I agree. If they put her in, I probably will not see the next movie. Too many cross overs occuring since Generations...

 

[Aragorn]

Still, I'd prefer to have an actor there who actually *wants* to be there and who enjoys what they're doing. I always thought Whoopi was a Trek fan...

I'm pretty sure there are Trek fans here who think Nemesis, The Final Frontier, The Motion Picture and Star Trek: Voyager suck. Does that make them any less of fans?

If you're a big time Texas Rangers fan, does it make you any less of a fan to point out how the Yankees have won a lot more World Series than the Rangers who have never even been there?

 

[JTAC]

I thought she was an ST fan and offered to be involved, or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes, iirc she actually approached the writers of tng and begged them to give her any part, any role in the series. She was that much of a fan.
They initially turned her down as they didn't think having someone of that calibre would work in a tv sci-fi series. She begged again saying that she would even take a none speaking part sweeping the floor in the background.

They ended up creating ten forward purely for her in the end.

All of the above might not be true, but I'm sure I read that somewhere long ago.

 

[UFO]

Well actually I meant that she [Whoopi] "worked" in the sense that "it worked out" - i.e. if the writers had had Guinan guest star on DS9 (with Sisko) or even Voyager (with Janeway), it wouldn't have worked out so well.

Oh right. That makes more sense, though its hard to be sure if she would have had as good a working relationship with other captains until she tried to of course.

Sure, she is "allowed" to like other shows and I wouldn't hold that against her if there was a suitable role, even under the circumstances (!). She doesn't really jump out at me as someone who fits with "NuTOS" though.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Guinan as the villain perhaps?