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A new 'Buck Rogers' film? Great, says Gil Gerard, but no bleakness

Basically since a planet and person the fans care about is destroyed instead of the usual countless more nameless planets and redshirts the characters shrug off when ever a godlike being, Doomsday Machine, Amoeba, or out of control/evil computer/modifided space probe shows up.
Exactly. What happens on-screen to a main character is a lot different than what happens off-screen to a background character.

Since the 2009 reboot. It's re-imagined for the "nu" generation now.
The TOS timeline is post-apocalyptic.
Not two seconds post Apocalypse. :rommie:

And the nuTrek apocalypse happens to Vulcan, not Earth. If we include third-party planets, TOS was immensely apocalyptic.
So what if it happens to Vulcan? That is just as important a place as Earth in the Federation. And the point is that it's a gratuitous change to the storyline.
 
Since the 2009 reboot. It's re-imagined for the "nu" generation now.
The TOS timeline is post-apocalyptic.

And the nuTrek apocalypse happens to Vulcan, not Earth. If we include third-party planets, TOS was immensely apocalyptic.

I guess people have forgotten about the Third World War (2048), and the social problems of the U.S in the 2020s - pivotal to Trek History and while not so much for the later, the former for was quite apocaliptic.

Iirc Gerard was also a bit critical of some of the 1st series of BR - he felt there was too much lightness and comedy and felt better with the second series when they were on The Searcher.
 
So what if it happens to Vulcan? That is just as important a place as Earth in the Federation.
And Alderaan was a pretty important planet in the Galactic Empire. We really want to go down this route again? ;)

Or to put this another way: Offscreen death is incidental to tone; and tone can convey how a picture intends to be seen as opposed to how people view it. Star Trek deals with its massive death with a light and breezy touch, keeping the emphasis on space adventure... which, y'know, is totally the same thing Buck Rogers did.
 
Iirc Gerard was also a bit critical of some of the 1st series of BR - he felt there was too much lightness and comedy and felt better with the second series when they were on The Searcher.

One of the things I disagreed with is that the idea that the 2nd season was better than the first. I love the first season but the second was too much like Star Trek. I think Gerald had a point that Buck should be more emotionally affected by the loss of everything, but Buck is at his heart an adventurer with a wicked sense of humor (and Gerald was perfect in the first season). Buck should be a combination of Colonel O'neil and Daniel Jackson or Chricton without the depression.
 
I'm not bothered if they go dark with it or stay fairly light hearted, just as long as they get rid of that fucking robot with a head like a bell-end. Preferably by some sort of on screen destruction at the start of the movie.
 
^^ Fortunately, that little critter was unique to that particular manifestation of Buck Rogers and is unlikely to be part of any new version.

So what if it happens to Vulcan? That is just as important a place as Earth in the Federation.
And Alderaan was a pretty important planet in the Galactic Empire. We really want to go down this route again? ;)
Everybody is important to somebody; that's not the point. In every episode of Monk, a Human Being was killed-- a horrible tragedy every week. But if Natalie were killed... that would be a totally different kind of story. That's just the way things are. (And Aldeberan was Princess Leia's planet, right? I've talked about how creepy that was before, haven't I?)

Or to put this another way: Offscreen death is incidental to tone; and tone can convey how a picture intends to be seen as opposed to how people view it. Star Trek deals with its massive death with a light and breezy touch, keeping the emphasis on space adventure... which, y'know, is totally the same thing Buck Rogers did.
In the original series, there were indeed holocausts like this from time to time, done to up the stakes on a show where nobody imagined a particular episode would be watched more than once or twice. It's very unfortunate and I wish they hadn't done it, but we're stuck with it. At least they dealt with that sort of thing better in later years. But it's still a lot different than saying, "Let's start over and blow planet Vulcan the fuck up, because, y'know, the underlying themes that made Star Trek classic Americana are just so totally last week." ;)
 
(And Aldeberan was Princess Leia's planet, right? I've talked about how creepy that was before, haven't I?)
Alderaan. You have talked about that being creepy, but if you therefore concluded that Star Wars was a dark movie, I missed that bit.

The point is; Star Wars has a planet blow up and it's a rousing adventure spectacle, Buck Rogers is post-apocalyptic and it's a rousing adventure spectacle, Abram's Star Trek has a planet blow up and it's a rousing adventure spectacle... just one a lot more recent then the previous two examples. So more of the same, only new is as good a line as any for a Buck movie.

Also I don't think Star Trek should apologize for wiping out planets now and again. They might have relied on it as a crutch to ratchet up tension once or twice, but episodes like "The Doomsday Machine" needed planets to have gotten eaten for the threat to be explicable.
 
(And Aldeberan was Princess Leia's planet, right? I've talked about how creepy that was before, haven't I?)
Alderaan. You have talked about that being creepy, but if you therefore concluded that Star Wars was a dark movie, I missed that bit.
Alderaan, sorry. What creeped me out was the cavalier attitude-- Princess Leia watches her entire planet (think about what that means-- billions of people, children, animals, all the history, museums, photos and love letters in attics, on and on) blown to bits (and is subsequently tortured) and brushes it off like a flat tire.

The point is; Star Wars has a planet blow up and it's a rousing adventure spectacle, Buck Rogers is post-apocalyptic and it's a rousing adventure spectacle, Abram's Star Trek has a planet blow up and it's a rousing adventure spectacle... just one a lot more recent then the previous two examples. So more of the same, only new is as good a line as any for a Buck movie.
But in Star Wars and Buck Rogers these are parts of the original concept. In Star Trek, the original concept was a mission of exploration and discovery in an optimistic future, the sense of wonder married to an enlightened social attitude; this is a revisionist film that blows all that away in favor of explosions, surreal interpersonal violence, corrupted characters and general superficiality. Even putting aside the quality of the writing, that shows a terrible lack of artistic integrity.

Also I don't think Star Trek should apologize for wiping out planets now and again. They might have relied on it as a crutch to ratchet up tension once or twice, but episodes like "The Doomsday Machine" needed planets to have gotten eaten for the threat to be explicable.
No, of course not-- that's perfectly legitimate (also, on further thought, I think the Doomsday Machine had only eaten uninhabited planets, but was heading for the Federation). But the destruction of an entire planet-- billions of people-- should be treated as a weighty matter, not a throwaway plot device (not in a franchise like Star Trek, anyway-- if you're dealing with something like, say, Lexx, it's a different matter).
 
But in Star Wars and Buck Rogers these are parts of the original concept. In Star Trek, the original concept was a mission of exploration and discovery in an optimistic future, the sense of wonder married to an enlightened social attitude; this is a revisionist film

Just because it's more revisionist doesn't mean that makes it inherently darker. There has to be something different about the portrayal itself, independent from its identity as a Star Trek product.

But the destruction of an entire planet-- billions of people-- should be treated as a weighty matter, not a throwaway plot device (not in a franchise like Star Trek, anyway-- if you're dealing with something like, say, Lexx, it's a different matter).
My favourite example of playing this the other way is probably the TNG episode "Lonely Among Us", where the implication that an ambassador was killed and eaten by a rival race on the ship is brushed off as a light comic moment to end the program. But I disgress.
 
But in Star Wars and Buck Rogers these are parts of the original concept. In Star Trek, the original concept was a mission of exploration and discovery in an optimistic future, the sense of wonder married to an enlightened social attitude; this is a revisionist film

Just because it's more revisionist doesn't mean that makes it inherently darker. There has to be something different about the portrayal itself, independent from its identity as a Star Trek product.

But the destruction of an entire planet-- billions of people-- should be treated as a weighty matter, not a throwaway plot device (not in a franchise like Star Trek, anyway-- if you're dealing with something like, say, Lexx, it's a different matter).
My favourite example of playing this the other way is probably the TNG episode "Lonely Among Us", where the implication that an ambassador was killed and eaten by a rival race on the ship is brushed off as a light comic moment to end the program. But I disgress.

Yeah that always bugged me too, glad I'm not the only one. That must have been early on in TNG as I think Tasha Yar was still in it? Terrible cliche, like when the redshirts or even characters people have known for years die and they can still all have a good laugh at the end
 
Diogenes, are you really going to force me to go through every episode of TOS and list how many of them feature destroyed civilizations? Or planetary scale destruction? Or Federation colonies wiped out to a man or nearly to a man?

TOS was light and breezy for the characters, but there was carnage all around them at all times, or the evidence of past carnage.

And even the characters perpetually had tragedies in their backstories that were alluded to.

The tone of nuTrek really isn't all that different. In fact, I took off a star precisely because it was all very light and breezy given the stakes.
 
What creeped me out was the cavalier attitude-- Princess Leia watches her entire planet (think about what that means-- billions of people, children, animals, all the history, museums, photos and love letters in attics, on and on) blown to bits (and is subsequently tortured) and brushes it off like a flat tire.
And how about that brother of hers? His adoptive parents are brutally murdered, he sees their smoking, charred corpses, and then ten minutes later, he's enthusiastically embarking on a fun adventure and joking around with his new buddies.

I know that stuff really had more to do with the need to keep the plot moving along quickly, but it's more fun to think that both of Anakin's spawn had more than a touch of the Dark Side inborn into them. ;)

No, of course not-- that's perfectly legitimate (also, on further thought, I think the Doomsday Machine had only eaten uninhabited planets, but was heading for the Federation).
It ate a whole ship's-worth of Starfleet folks, plus the strong implication was that it had gobbled up countless inhabited worlds previously.

But the destruction of an entire planet-- billions of people-- should be treated as a weighty matter, not a throwaway plot device (not in a franchise like Star Trek, anyway-- if you're dealing with something like, say, Lexx, it's a different matter).
If there's no acknowledgment of the impact of Vulcan's destruction on Spock in subsequent movies, I'll be bitching right along with ya. That was a much bigger event than the destruction of Alderaan - Vulcan was a real place that we'd seen many times - so there had better be serious aftershocks. I expect that Spock's mental stability will undergo some serious challenges. What's gonna happen the next time he runs across a Romulan (even the Abramsverse's "blameless" Romulans)?
 
It should be somewhat silly and campy. I don't think a dead serious Buck Rogers can work without drastic changes.
 
i just hope Wilma wears a tight catsuit, is played by a major hottie and she kicks ass.

BRIT25C was a large part of making me believe women are just as capable as men. Wilma's the head of the Earth Defence forces, she's Buck's boss, she's a crack pilot and she doesn't do a huge amount of screaing in distress, she's usually whupping as much ass as Buck!
 
Erin Gray should have some role in the reboot. My God, after all these years, she has still GOT. IT. :drool:

Or to put it another way: A reboot should have some rebooty. There, I said it. :devil: :lol:
 
Just because it's more revisionist doesn't mean that makes it inherently darker. There has to be something different about the portrayal itself, independent from its identity as a Star Trek product.
One of the four founding planets of the Federation has been destroyed, nearly all its people killed; this has sociological, economic and security implications that make the days following the 2001 terrorist attacks look like Woodstock. Imagine if, instead of the World Trade Center, three New England States had been wiped out.

My favourite example of playing this the other way is probably the TNG episode "Lonely Among Us", where the implication that an ambassador was killed and eaten by a rival race on the ship is brushed off as a light comic moment to end the program. But I disgress.
Yeah, that was definitely bizarre.

The tone of nuTrek really isn't all that different. In fact, I took off a star precisely because it was all very light and breezy given the stakes.
That's kind of my point, at least in part.

And how about that brother of hers? His adoptive parents are brutally murdered, he sees their smoking, charred corpses, and then ten minutes later, he's enthusiastically embarking on a fun adventure and joking around with his new buddies.

I know that stuff really had more to do with the need to keep the plot moving along quickly, but it's more fun to think that both of Anakin's spawn had more than a touch of the Dark Side inborn into them. ;)
Well, we later found out that their Mother was turned on by genocide, so I guess the nuts don't fall far from the tree. :rommie:

It ate a whole ship's-worth of Starfleet folks, plus the strong implication was that it had gobbled up countless inhabited worlds previously.
And remember Commodore Decker's reaction to the loss of his crew. That was Star Trek at its best. In nuTrek, the planet Vulcan blows up and it's "buckle up!"

If there's no acknowledgment of the impact of Vulcan's destruction on Spock in subsequent movies, I'll be bitching right along with ya. That was a much bigger event than the destruction of Alderaan - Vulcan was a real place that we'd seen many times - so there had better be serious aftershocks. I expect that Spock's mental stability will undergo some serious challenges. What's gonna happen the next time he runs across a Romulan (even the Abramsverse's "blameless" Romulans)?
He shouldn't be running across anybody. His actions in the movie merit a court martial and being remanded to psychological treatment, not even counting the effect of the loss of Vulcan. Then think about how the witnesses to the 2001 terrorist attacks were effected mentally and emotionally. Now remember that the nu crew was not only witness to Vulcan being destroyed but tried to save them and failed. And most of these characters are kids. They are going to need treatment. Some would probably be on suicide watch. When they are eventually returned to duty, if they are, they would certainly not all be allowed to serve together.

Of course, that's not going to happen. It's going to be a Summer blockbuster.
 
Alderaan, sorry. What creeped me out was the cavalier attitude-- Princess Leia watches her entire planet (think about what that means-- billions of people, children, animals, all the history, museums, photos and love letters in attics, on and on) blown to bits (and is subsequently tortured) and brushes it off like a flat tire.

But the destruction of an entire planet-- billions of people-- should be treated as a weighty matter, not a throwaway plot device (not in a franchise like Star Trek, anyway-- if you're dealing with something like, say, Lexx, it's a different matter).
In the case of both Alderaan and Vulcan the characters were still in the middle of a crisis and attempting to prevent the destruction of other planets.

Should Princess Leia have just sat down and cried, allowing the Rebel cause (and freedom throughout the galaxy) to be crushed on Yavin and letting Alderaan be destroyed for nothing? And who's to say that's not exactly what she was doing while she was trapped in her detention cell before Han and Luke showed up? But once there was a chance of escape, she was up and around and doing her job, because she's a good leader.

Should Kirk and Spock hold a memorial while Earth also was under immediate threat of destruction? How does that honor the Vulcans who died?

These weren't run-of-the-mill characters who had the option to grieve or ponder the horror of the situation at that moment, because they were responsible for protecting billions of lives. They had time to deal with the aftermath of the destruction of their respective planets when other planets weren't about to be destroyed too.

Also, I don't understand where you get the idea that these weren't treated as weighty matters just because the bulk of the grieving and eulogizing didn't take place onscreen. There was a gap in time between the end of the action and the respective awards ceremonies in each movie where a great deal of that could have taken place.

Was Spock's obvious despair in his after-action report about the destruction of his homeworld not satisfactory? Was his willingness to leave Starfleet to try and rebuild and repopulate his species not a sign of how very seriously he took the destruction of Vulcan? The characters were obviously devastated by what happened at Vulcan, but they had to set it aside temoprarily to do their jobs.

But in Star Wars and Buck Rogers these are parts of the original concept. In Star Trek, the original concept was a mission of exploration and discovery in an optimistic future, the sense of wonder married to an enlightened social attitude; this is a revisionist film that blows all that away in favor of explosions, surreal interpersonal violence, corrupted characters and general superficiality. Even putting aside the quality of the writing, that shows a terrible lack of artistic integrity.
The very first episode of Star Trek dealt with a species that had wiped out almost their entire civilization in a nuclear holocaust, and many more episodes and films dealt with that level of destruction or worse as well, usually as an allegory about our own tenuous peace and potential for nuclear destruction on Earth. War with other species was also part of the show right from the start. They're as much a part of Star Trek as they are in the other two examples, regardless of the coexisting themes of exploration and optimism.

Plus, your point seems contradictory in that you want the characters in Trek XI to show their profound suffering in the wake of the destruction of Vulcan yet also want it to be an optimistic tale of adventure and discovery. How do you do that in a two hour movie without relegating most of the grieving to offscreen or never doing anything that would make the characters emotionally devastated for a great deal of time?

I think the movie handled it perfectly. It acknowledged the grief at the destruction of Vulcan through Spock (and Uhura) but then moved on with the story by presenting an equally terrible threat to Earth before retouching on it toward the end. I don't see what else could have been done without making the whole movie a downer. If you're being reasonable in your judgment of the film it should be assumed that there's extensive grieving and memorializing going on offscreen. Not everything has to be spelled out in explicit detail.

[edited to add]:

His actions in the movie merit a court martial and being remanded to psychological treatment, not even counting the effect of the loss of Vulcan. Then think about how the witnesses to the 2001 terrorist attacks were effected mentally and emotionally. Now remember that the nu crew was not only witness to Vulcan being destroyed but tried to save them and failed. And most of these characters are kids. They are going to need treatment. Some would probably be on suicide watch. When they are eventually returned to duty, if they are, they would certainly not all be allowed to serve together.

Of course, that's not going to happen. It's going to be a Summer blockbuster.

Okay, to borrow your 9/11 example...

Do you think the pilots of the F-15s and F-16s on patrol over New York and Washington weren't as devastated by the destruction as the rest of us? What about the people at NORAD and military or civilian air traffic control centers? What about the President's staff and the President and VP themselves? Do you think they weren't feeling emotions? But that doesn't change the fact that they had a job to do and it was their duty to act responsibly and respond to the crisis at hand lest more attacks occur. The time for grieving is after the immediate crisis is resolved, and they did so when appropriate. The same happened in the film.

Your stretching because you didn't like the movie. Which is fine, but you shouldn't dismiss storytelling logic to make your point. The movie can't spend the entire time with people crying and still be a rousing adventure. At best you can touch on it in a poignant way before moving on with the main plot, which the film did in my opinion.
 
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And remember Commodore Decker's reaction to the loss of his crew. That was Star Trek at its best. In nuTrek, the planet Vulcan blows up and it's "buckle up!"
Yes those two scenes happen one after the other.
Oh, wait they don't
ST09 Transcript said:
[Transporter room]

(alarms begin blaring)
CHEKOV: I'm losing her. I'm losing her, I'm losing her! No, I've lost her.
(the group, minus Amanda, are transported up. Vulcan is shown imploding as Enterprise leaves the area)

[Sickbay]

SPOCK: (voice-over) Acting captain's log, stardate twenty-two fifty-eight point four two. We have had no word from Captain Pike. I have therefore classified him a hostage of the war criminal known as Nero. Nero, who has destroyed my home planet and most of its six billion inhabitants. While the essence of our culture has been saved in the elders who now reside upon the ship, I estimate no more than ten thousand have survived. I am now a member of an endangered species.
(various cuts and bruises are being fixed, including Kirk's hands and the Vulcan elders)

[Bridge]

(Spock exits the bridge and enters the turbolift. Uhura follows him)

[Turbolift]

(Uhura stops the lift)
UHURA: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
(she kisses Spock)
UHURA: What do you need? Tell me. Tell me.
(Spock turns the lift back on)
SPOCK: I need everyone to continue performing admirably.
UHURA: Okay.
(they kiss some more and Spock exits unto a corridor)
 
^^ I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

In the case of both Alderaan and Vulcan the characters were still in the middle of a crisis and attempting to prevent the destruction of other planets.

Should Princess Leia have just sat down and cried, allowing the Rebel cause (and freedom throughout the galaxy) to be crushed on Yavin and letting Alderaan be destroyed for nothing? And who's to say that's not exactly what she was doing while she was trapped in her detention cell before Han and Luke showed up? But once there was a chance of escape, she was up and around and doing her job, because she's a good leader.

Should Kirk and Spock hold a memorial while Earth also was under immediate threat of destruction? How does that honor the Vulcans who died?

These weren't run-of-the-mill characters who had the option to grieve or ponder the horror of the situation at that moment, because they were responsible for protecting billions of lives. They had time to deal with the aftermath of the destruction of their respective planets when other planets weren't about to be destroyed too.

Also, I don't understand where you get the idea that these weren't treated as weighty matters just because the bulk of the grieving and eulogizing didn't take place onscreen. There was a gap in time between the end of the action and the respective awards ceremonies in each movie where a great deal of that could have taken place.
People are effected for months, years, the rest of their lives, if their house burns down. We're talking about the destruction of an entire planet. I never suggested that they should drop everything right then and there-- I'm saying that it shouldn't be forgotten about ten minutes later. The fact is that both of these movies (especially Star Wars) treated these events superficially; it makes the characters look incredibly shallow, if not completely sociopathic.

Was Spock's obvious despair in his after-action report about the destruction of his homeworld not satisfactory? Was his willingness to leave Starfleet to try and rebuild and repopulate his species not a sign of how very seriously he took the destruction of Vulcan? The characters were obviously devastated by what happened at Vulcan, but they had to set it aside temoprarily to do their jobs.
No, it was far from satisfactory; it was quite cursory. Especially when you consider how easily Young Spock was convinced by Old Spock that recreating a friendship from another time and dimension was more important than dealing with the near-extinction of the Vulcans.

The very first episode of Star Trek dealt with a species that had wiped out almost their entire civilization in a nuclear holocaust, and many more episodes and films dealt with that level of destruction or worse as well, usually as an allegory about our own tenuous peace and potential for nuclear destruction on Earth. War with other species was also part of the show right from the start. They're as much a part of Star Trek as they are in the other two examples, regardless of the coexisting themes of exploration and optimism.
All different situations. Using your example, in "The Cage," that event had taken place in the distant past and was not the immediate situation. Also, again, in this case we're talking about going back and re-writing something to be the exact opposite of what it was. You seem to be missing my points here.

Plus, your point seems contradictory in that you want the characters in Trek XI to show their profound suffering in the wake of the destruction of Vulcan yet also want it to be an optimistic tale of adventure and discovery. How do you do that in a two hour movie without relegating most of the grieving to offscreen or never doing anything that would make the characters emotionally devastated for a great deal of time?
No, my point is that it was stupid to rewrite Star Trek to be something it's not. They should have just told the story of how the original characters got together. By changing it in this fashion, they have made the original premise, the five-year mission, impossible (or ridiculous).

I don't see what else could have been done without making the whole movie a downer.
How about telling the story of the origins of the original crew? :rommie:

The time for grieving is after the immediate crisis is resolved, and they did so when appropriate. The same happened in the film.
The same didn't happen in the film. And if it does in the next film to the extent that it should, the next film will resemble Star Trek even less than the first, because the characters will not be together and will be even less like the originals than they were to begin with.

Your stretching because you didn't like the movie. Which is fine, but you shouldn't dismiss storytelling logic to make your point. The movie can't spend the entire time with people crying and still be a rousing adventure.
I'm not stretching; these are the reasons I don't like the movie. And I'm talking about the lack of storytelling logic. Your third sentence there is true, and partially my point.
 
They should do a new Buck Rogers in the same vein as the 1980 Flash Gordon film - somewhat light, retro look, great music and lots of small costumes (is Ornella Muti available?) :)
 
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