Best and Worst Trek novel you have read?

[Thrawn]

^ You're not arguing against Christopher's point.

Christopher was saying, in essence, hope comes after tragedy. He was not saying that hope ONLY comes after tragedy.

No one is saying Destiny was NECESSARY in order to then write stories about hope and joy. Just that Destiny does not PRECLUDE stories about hope and joy.

 

[flemm]

I don't think the expression "genocide-chic" implies that everything must be dark forevermore, merely that it is currently trendy to have extremely high body counts as a show of "grittiness" or "credibility" or whatever. This is not an expression I personally employ, but I understand the trend it is attempting to define.

As for life going on after a tragedy, naturally it does, but I do think an absolutely unprecedented catastrophe on the scale of Destiny would have a profound impact on the Federation, more profound than it is likely to have in the follow-up stories, where I don't expect much will change other than a few planets will be missing., a few shifted alliances, that sort of thing. This is similar to Vulcan being destroyed in Trek '09: there's only a handful of Vulcan characters that we care about, so essentially everything else is disposable. Not that I have a big problem with that either. I mean blow it up if you feel like it, whatever, it's entertainment. It's a trend like any other, and of course not even a particularly new one.

Basically, my reaction is something along these lines: if you are going to kill billions in an unprecedented disaster, there should be some serious and far-reaching consquences, otherwise it feels empty (this is where "genocide-chic" comes in: it just feels like fashionable window-dressing); or alternately, don't bother with the body count at all and just tell a different story. Dark is fine, if you're really ready to go there. Not dark is also fine, and perhaps more suitable for the Trek universe. But "disposable darkness" is less palatable to me personally.

Naturally all this is contigent on what eventually happens in Typhon Pact and so on. Frankly, it's been ten years or more since some of these shows have even been on the air, so I'll take what I can get

 

[F. King Daniel]

Typh00n Pact?

It's Typhon Pact!

Never trust your spellchecker

 

[Starbreaker]

Nobody wants the same old stories, nobody wants change.... it gets old.

 

[kkozoriz1]

^ You're not arguing against Christopher's point.

Christopher was saying, in essence, hope comes after tragedy. He was not saying that hope ONLY comes after tragedy.

No one is saying Destiny was NECESSARY in order to then write stories about hope and joy. Just that Destiny does not PRECLUDE stories about hope and joy.

Everything comes after tragedy. Anger. Fear. Rage. Dispair. Just because you've had tragedy doesn't mean that hope will follow along.

I get the feeling that Destiny was brought about to put and end to the Borg since the writers couldn't leave it alone and they got over used. At the end of Voyager, the transwarp hubs were shut down. The Borg were cut off from the rest of the galaxy, at least as far as being able to get to the Alpha Quardrant quickly. Rather than leave it at that, the Borg were over used to the point that Destiny had to end the threat once and for all.

I'm not interested in reading stories about civilization climbing back from the brink. There's enough of that in the real world, thank you. I'd rather read a story about people overcoming adversity by using their morals and brains rather than simply having survived the disaster de jour.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think the expression "genocide-chic" implies that everything must be dark forevermore, merely that it is currently trendy to have extremely high body counts as a show of "grittiness" or "credibility" or whatever. This is not an expression I personally employ, but I understand the trend it is attempting to define.

Okay, then it's wrong to apply that phrase to post-Destiny literature. Yes, there are high body counts in Destiny, but there aren't high body counts in the books following Destiny. The Destiny trilogy was a special event, not a new standard. What I don't get is this assumption that everything following Destiny must be exactly like it. Nothing could be further from the truth. The post-DES novels are not more of the same, and they aren't the same as each other. Indeed, they're very different from each other, with the only common thread being that they take place in the wake of the Borg Invasion.

 

[flemm]

Okay, then it's wrong to apply that phrase to post-Destiny literature.

It hasn't been used as a blanket expression to describe all post-Destiny literature in this thread that I have noticed. I merely attempted to explain what I think is meant by the expression: the depiction of very high body counts because it is trendy and fashionable to do so.

 

[Christopher]

I took the "genocide chic" reference to pertain to Trent Roman's belief that all post-Destiny literature would be too depressing to be worth reading, or something to that effect. I'm trying to explain that he's thoroughly misunderstood the nature of post-DES literature.

 

[kkozoriz1]

How much are they going to deal with the aftermath? Will one be right in the middle of reconstruction? Will another mention it with a line and then ignore it? Will it be a combination of both? Either way, I'm on the fence. It was a huge blow to the Federation and must be addressed. However, I wasn't a fan of the whole "Let's blast to lava" destruction of several planets. I'd like to leave it behind. I think I'll just drop back to the 23rd century and wait for Vanguard & TOS. DS9-R ran out of steam. haven't been reading Voyager. TNG has just been a muddled mess. Titan is not on it's deep exploration any longer.

"Do you remember when we were explorers?"

 

[JD]

Basically, my reaction is something along these lines: if you are going to kill billions in an unprecedented disaster, there should be some serious and far-reaching consquences, otherwise it feels empty (this is where "genocide-chic" comes in: it just feels like fashionable window-dressing); or alternately, don't bother with the body count at all and just tell a different story. Dark is fine, if you're really ready to go there. Not dark is also fine, and perhaps more suitable for the Trek universe. But "disposable darkness" is less palatable to me personally.

And we have been shown that there have been big consequences in both Losing the Peace and A Singular Destiny, and will presumably see more in the Typhon Pact books (and maybe Indistinguishable from Magic). As for darkness, I really think the books have gotten it right. They've acknowledged everything that happened, and dealt with it, but they haven't gone into total darkness and depression. They've still managed to keep the positiveness and optimism that is Trek. Instead of simply wallowing in pity, the books have shown people working to help each other and rebuild, and possibly even better than things were before. To me that is optimistic and very positive.

 

[flemm]

As for darkness, I really think the books have gotten it right. They've acknowledged everything that happened, and dealt with it, but they haven't gone into total darkness and depression. They've still managed to keep the positiveness and optimism that is Trek. Instead of simply wallowing in pity, the books have shown people working to help each other and rebuild, and possibly even better than things were before. To me that is optimistic and very positive.

The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned, but no matter. Destiny had its problems imo, but was still a pretty awesome piece of tie-in fiction. I have pretty modest expectations for these novels anyway, and on some level I'm simply glad I can still pick up professional-quality stories about these characters, "genocide-chic" or no "genocide-chic."

 

[kkozoriz1]

I took the "genocide chic" reference to pertain to Trent Roman's belief that all post-Destiny literature would be too depressing to be worth reading, or something to that effect. I'm trying to explain that he's thoroughly misunderstood the nature of post-DES literature.

It's part of the "We need bigger explosions" idea so popular these days.

Are you familiar with the RPG Traveller? They had the most sucessful SF RPG for YEARS. To shake things up they Killed the Emperor, released a techno-virus that lead to the death of billions and destroyed thousands of planets. Civilization fell. And what did they get for destroying the most popular game of it's type? They almost killed it stone dead. Long time fans left in droves. Sales of the post virus material didn't approach a fraction of the earlier material. Later versions are busy dialing back the destruction to an earlier time or an alternate history.

What do you do now when someone tries to introduce "The greatest threat the Federation has ever seen?". I find it hard to believe that it's better to write stories about a Federation that's been beaten to withing a razors edge of being defeated. If that was needed to make the new stories compelling then perhaps we need some new authors with some new ideas.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The next wave of books aren't about epic wars and attacks and genocides. That's over with. Now it's a cold war between two super-powers.

(admittedly the destruction of Romulus in 2387 will kill billions, but AFAIK Destiny was written prior to anyone knowing that would happen, and the novels have to follow canon Trek events)

 

[Steve Roby]

Interesting to see this particular debate show up at the same time as someone's asking about the Genesis Wave books. Back in the Ordoverian Period, galaxy-spanning disasters happened once or twice a year, or so it sometimes seemed. There was the invasion of the Furies, the Double Helix plague, the Genesis Wave, the Gateways crisis, etc etc etc. Worlds were destroyed, lots of people killed, and very little of it had any effect on the Trek books that followed.

Destiny changed the face of the 24th century Trekverse by removing the Borg -- the kind of sweeping change that wasn't going to come without a price. And, more importantly, it made changes that are playing out in the books that have followed it. This is the first time that what happened in a big Trek books event really matters in other Trek books. IMHO, that beats the hell out of the forgettable old disaster of the month.

 

[Thrawn]

How much are they going to deal with the aftermath? Will one be right in the middle of reconstruction? Will another mention it with a line and then ignore it? Will it be a combination of both? Either way, I'm on the fence. It was a huge blow to the Federation and must be addressed. However, I wasn't a fan of the whole "Let's blast to lava" destruction of several planets. I'd like to leave it behind. I think I'll just drop back to the 23rd century and wait for Vanguard & TOS. DS9-R ran out of steam. haven't been reading Voyager. TNG has just been a muddled mess. Titan is not on it's deep exploration any longer.

"Do you remember when we were explorers?"

Have you read ANY of the post-Destiny novels?

Titan IS back on its exploration mission and isn't anywhere near Federation space, Beyer's Voyager novels were the surprise hits of the year last year (almost shockingly better than any prior Voyager novels), and the two novels dealing with the aftermath have been flawlessly balanced between optimism and realism. And Leisner's Losing The Peace has some of the best characterizations of the TNG regulars ever; he's the only author that's made me really like Crusher, among other triumphs.

I think you're complaining about something that's already been moved past.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The crossovers are getting as bad as the comics. They just lead from one crossover event to the next. Saddleing DS9 with the 5 year jump just to bring it in line with the rest of the books will make crossovers that much easier. How often did DS9 cross over with any of the other series?

I enjoyed the overall story of Destiny. There were some elements that I wish had been handled differently. I'm just not sold on the whole "rising from the ashes to face a brighter day" deal.

With there being so few stand alone books being done you're pretty much tied to the way the universe is being written, for better or worse.

 

[Thrawn]

There was a crossover every year from 1996 to 2001, and there've been only two crossovers since 2002. I think you're overstating your case just a little.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I did read Over a Torrent Sea and Synthesis and enjoyed them both. However, the Typhon pack brings them back to deal with the Gorn. Seeing as the Gorn were first encountered in TOS I'm guessing that their space lises fairly close to Earth, astronomically speaking. Certanly not as far as Titan has been shown to be in Orion's Hounds, for example.

If they're going to be dragged back for the annual cross-over I'll just give it a miss. They had a great series going before Destiny (once they got the first two books out of the way. They were good, the rest are great)

Haven't read DS9-R since the whole mirror universe story killed my interest in the line.

Haven't followed Voyager at all. Never been a big fan of those characters.

Got to the point in TNG where Peter David had the Borg eat Pluto, decided that was enough to push me off the fence I'd been sitting on and haven't followed any others since.

 

[Thrawn]

Well, first of all, there's no reason that the Gorn can't have explorers just as far out as Titan is. But I guess neither of us knows for sure until that comes out, so I'll drop that for now.

If you want exploration stories, though, Voyager is where it's at. Unworthy centers on unexplored territory, and from the brief description of Children Of The Storm, sounds like it will too. And I never liked the Voyager characters either. I think you might like those more than you expect.

And you missed what are just about universally believed to be the two best TNG-R novels, with Greater Than The Sum and Losing The Peace. Neither is anything like the earlier entries.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I've considered Losing the peace but the description fron the cover makes it sound a but much on the blasted worlds that I'm avoiding.

"But her homeworld, Deneva, one of the planets targeted in the massive Borg invasion, has not. The entire surface has been wiped clean of everything, killing anyone who did not evacuate and rendering the planet uninhabitable. Choudhury is left to wonder whether her family was one of the displaced. Or are they all gone forever?"

Sorry, this just doesn't look like something I'm in the mood for.

Greater than the Sum sounds like it would be more interesting with more on the carbon planets and less (i.e. none) of the Borg.