Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]

[Gojira]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

In an effort to appease many fans the writers wanted to let them know that the events in this movie create an alternate universe that allows for the continuing existence of the Prime Universe we have been watching for the last 40+ years.

The problem with that is, other than the writers telling us that is what has happened I personally have a difficult time reconciling that with what I see on the screen.

The movie plays like a typical time travel story frequently told in all of Star Trek: The time line gets altered but our valiant crew always sets things right and restores the proper time line at the end. Except this movie didn't hit the reset button.

So you can have three viable theories in my opinion.

A) This movie is set in the Prime Universe and has erased all old Trek.

B) Nero and Prime Spock are from the Prime Universe but arrive at an already existing Alternate Universe which they happen to further mess with its time line.

C) Nero and Prime Spock are not from our Prime Universe but are from an already existing Alternate Universe separate from our Prime Universe and are going back in time and erasing the events of this Alternate Universe which they originated from. (this is similar to theory A except that the entire movie all takes place in its own Alternate Universe).

I am alright with either of these theories. Right now I like theory A and in this way I can view the entire Star Trek franchise like one giant long story with each series and each episode playing like a chapter to a long on going story. The events did happen as we have been watching for many years but now at this point in the Star Trek saga the time line has been changed and now events will unfold differently. But I can go back any time I want and view the old time line (via my DVDs) because, as I said, it did happen, it just won't happen again the same way this new time around.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

The movie plays like a typical time travel story frequently told in all of Star Trek: The time line gets altered but our valiant crew always sets things right and restores the proper time line at the end. Except this movie didn't hit the reset button.

So, in other words, the movie plays like a typical time travel story frequently told in Star Trek, except for the fact that it does not play like a typical time travel story frequently told in Star Trek.

So the assumption that this film is bound by the conventions of inherently contradictory 20th-century pop culture time travel has no basis in the film itself.

Notice the differences? TNG Rommies have hair. They also have very pronounced eyebrow and forhead ridges. Abramsverse Rommies are bald and tatooed. Horatio calls them "Tatoomulans". That sounds appropriate. Notice also that Nero has no eyebrow or forehead ridges.

Nero's crew shaved their heads ( but do we know for a fact that head-shaving technology even exists in the 24th century?), and Nero has eyebrow ridges.

Michael is the Godfather.

To me, there's no way that "our" Spock would allow his home planet to be destroyed.

Unless of course he was powerless to stop it from happening. Then again, we all know that TOS Spock was an omnipotent god, and nothing happened in his universe that he didn't personally allow to happen.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I-Am-Zim wrote:
To me, there's no way that "our" Spock would allow his home planet to be destroyed.

Set Harth
Unless of course he was powerless to stop it from happening. Then again, we all know that TOS Spock was an omnipotent god, and nothing happened in his universe that he didn't personally allow to happen.

LOLOL!

Yeah, Spock didn't allow anything, he got stranded by a mad man on a ball of ice and bore witness to Vulcan's demise.

Some fans perceptions of Star Trek, the franchise are viewed via a rose colored lens where StarFleet is never wrong, Gene Roddenberry is a prophet of an achievable Utopian future, and Vulcan's are always flawless and logic somehow equals "kind and pleasant" when in truth a truly logical people would not be safe to be around.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

If they really do not need to film him anymore, they can just as easily have a throwaway line that Spock Prime is going to try to return to his Universe.

 

[Gojira]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So, in other words, the movie plays like a typical time travel story frequently told in Star Trek, except for the fact that it does not play like a typical time travel story frequently told in Star Trek.

So the assumption that this film is bound by the conventions of inherently contradictory 20th-century pop culture time travel has no basis in the film itself.

In other words the action and dialog on the screen point to it being a typical linear time travel story that is not set right at the end.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

It's fine with me if this erases and replaces the old timeline as far as the movies and TV is concerned - since, in fact, that's what it does regardless of the internal story explanation. The old timeline exists in the 700+ hours of oldTrek tv and films.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Prime Spock may have gone into a black hole and went somewhere. We needn't speak to that because we don't know.

What I do know is that Prime Spock didn't go into the Abramsverse. Simply because Prime Spock knows that Kirk didn't command the Enterprise until his early thirties. And for him to express surprise that young, barely out of Academy, nuKirk is not already in command of the Enterprise clearly illustrates that the Spock that emerges into the Abramsverse isn't Prime Spock from TOS.

It may be that Abrams wants to suggest that, but that isn't the evidence on the screen. That it isn't onscreen shows that Abrams either didn't really know and/or care about the original continuity and/or he was just sloppy. Either way the onscreen evidence (or lack thereof) trumps whatever his intent.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

^Whatever you have to tell yourself in order to sleep at night!

 

[Warped9]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

^Whatever you have to tell yourself in order to sleep at night!

Same to you.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

That it isn't onscreen shows that Abrams either didn't really know and/or care about the original continuity and/or he was just sloppy.

Or that Spock is becoming quite elderly. They really aged up Nimoy for this outing, including even making his eyes rheumy. I was pleased to see that Nimoy out of makeup, promoting the film, wasn't quite as ancient as his Vulcan counterpart.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Notice the differences? TNG Rommies have hair. They also have very pronounced eyebrow and forhead ridges. Abramsverse Rommies are bald and tatooed. Horatio calls them "Tatoomulans". That sounds appropriate. Notice also that Nero has no eyebrow or forehead ridges.

Nero's crew shaved their heads ( but do we know for a fact that head-shaving technology even exists in the 24th century?), and Nero has eyebrow ridges.

Except that we've never heard of shorn Rommies before. It would have been nice to have had just a teensy bit of background as to why they shaved their heads and gave themselves Darth Maul tatoos. And no, Nero does not have eyebrow ridges like a 24th century Romulan.

Michael is the Godfather.

To me, there's no way that "our" Spock would allow his home planet to be destroyed.

Unless of course he was powerless to stop it from happening. Then again, we all know that TOS Spock was an omnipotent god, and nothing happened in his universe that he didn't personally allow to happen.

He wasn't powerless. "Our" Spock knows all about how to travel back in time. He provided the mathematics to slingshot a battered Klingon BoP around the sun to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to bring back to the 23rd century to save the Earth. His formula to restart the warp engines of the TOS Enterprise caused them to travel back in time three days. And there are many other instances of time travel that Spock could have used.

He could have used any of several different methods to travel back to the instant before Vulcan was destroyed and stopped Nero somehow. How? Maybe he could have told Captain Pike to fire phasers and torpedoes at the teather holding the drill like NuSpock did at Earth and destroyed the drill before they could finish drilling to Vulcan's core. And if Nero still tried to launch the Red Matter bomb, the Abramsprise could have tractor beamed it and then beamed it back to the Narada.

The other possibility is that OldSpock probably knew he was in an alternate universe and that "his" Vulcan was just fine in the other universe that he came from, he simply didn't care that this alternate version of his home world was destroyed. No skin off his nose.

I know this is all pure nonsense and speculation. But it could work.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

And no, Nero does not have eyebrow ridges like a 24th century Romulan.

BS!
Nero and the other Romulans HAD eyebrow ridges. Not as big and rubbery like in the television shows, but more subtle and nevertheless big enough to be noticed. THESE are NOT Banas NORMAL eyebrow ridges:

 

[Gojira]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

And no, Nero does not have eyebrow ridges like a 24th century Romulan.

BS!
Nero and the other Romulans HAD eyebrow ridges. Not as big and rubbery like in the television shows, but more subtle and nevertheless big enough to be noticed. THESE are NOT Banas NORMAL eyebrow ridges:

That is very true. If you watch the extras on the DVD it shows them putting make-up on Bana and he is wearing some type of ridge/eyebrow prosthetic. The Romulan ridges are not as built up as the TNG series but they are more than they were in the TOS series.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

As I said. Nero does not have TNG-era 24th century Romulan eyebrow or forehead ridges. He has built-up eyebrows, but that's it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

As I said. Nero does not have TNG-era 24th century Romulan eyebrow or forehead ridges. He has built-up eyebrows, but that's it.

So what?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So, Nero is supposed to be a 24th century Romulan from the TNG-era prime universe. He should look the part.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

. He has built-up eyebrows, but that's it.

I'm deeply sorry, but there are clearly eyebrow ridges. I understand that you refuse to see them, because you like to whine about little details, but they are still there.
of course, they are not EXACTLY the same like the ridges in TNG, but personally, I would have been very dissapointed if they had used the same cheap rubber parts they used in a TV show from the 80ies. It's an update. A brilliant update to be precise. and face it: it never made sense that romulans had those big bumpers on their forehead while vulcans hadn't

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So, Nero is supposed to be a 24th century Romulan from the TNG-era prime universe. He should look the part.

Naw. Everything looks different in this movie, and that signifies absolutely nothing about the events of the storyline.

Hell, they haven't done Nimoy's ears to match in any two Star Trek movies.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Of course, if it pleases some folks, it's entirely possible that Nero and his crew simply represents a type of Romulan we haven't seen before. After all, we've seen different types of Vulcans (different skin tones), Andorians (different skin tones and different antenna placements), and even joined Trills (Odan) over the years.

Not all aliens from the same world look alike, IMO...

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So, Nero is supposed to be a 24th century Romulan from the TNG-era prime universe. He should look the part.

Again, totally a matter of artistic choice and nothing to do with the plot but for JJ and his team thought they looked better this way.

A point I happen to agree with. GR really should have kept the Romulans ridgeless.

Nor do we need any "background" as to why they all shave their heads. They just do, its really no huge deal and to derail a movie with that little bit of information would be funny.