Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
In Australia all elections are held on Saturdays.
In Australia all elections are held on Saturdays.
UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possible
- Thread starter Lonemagpie
- Start date
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
In some ways, having younger people in politics is a good thing - the young tend to be more energised about 'changing the world' and less set in their ways. However, there is also the point that career politicians trying to make decisions for specialists in other fields is somewhat farcical. A politician, in our system, who has no background whatsoever in education can dictate the minutiae of the school system. A Home Secretary with no experience of law enforcement (or criminal law in general for that matter) can dictate policing and sentencing policies. It's bizarre, really.
In some ways, having younger people in politics is a good thing - the young tend to be more energised about 'changing the world' and less set in their ways. However, there is also the point that career politicians trying to make decisions for specialists in other fields is somewhat farcical. A politician, in our system, who has no background whatsoever in education can dictate the minutiae of the school system. A Home Secretary with no experience of law enforcement (or criminal law in general for that matter) can dictate policing and sentencing policies. It's bizarre, really.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Yeah Jacqui Smith made a good point about that after she resigned as Home Sec (which surely has to be the poisoned chalice of politics)
But then again you can't be an expert in everything, and you shouldn't just make someone health secretary because they've worked in the NHS--sometimes an outsider's perspective is a good thing. Also the minister should be able to rely on expert advisors...
Of course the trouble with that is when they don't listen to them. (which seems to be far too often!)
Yeah Jacqui Smith made a good point about that after she resigned as Home Sec (which surely has to be the poisoned chalice of politics)
But then again you can't be an expert in everything, and you shouldn't just make someone health secretary because they've worked in the NHS--sometimes an outsider's perspective is a good thing. Also the minister should be able to rely on expert advisors...
Of course the trouble with that is when they don't listen to them. (which seems to be far too often!)
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
I think that was one of my key issues with Labour actually - not that their cabinet members weren't experts - as you say, perhaps an outsider perspective is valuable in something as inward looking as the NHS or police tend to be. But it was the flagrant disregard for evidence based policy that got me. They'd commission advisers, scientists, reviewers, and then 100% ignore what their conclusions were unless they happened to match what they were going to do anyway. It's the mentality that gets disclaimers in evolution textbooks, and it's dangerous to see in parliament.
I think that was one of my key issues with Labour actually - not that their cabinet members weren't experts - as you say, perhaps an outsider perspective is valuable in something as inward looking as the NHS or police tend to be. But it was the flagrant disregard for evidence based policy that got me. They'd commission advisers, scientists, reviewers, and then 100% ignore what their conclusions were unless they happened to match what they were going to do anyway. It's the mentality that gets disclaimers in evolution textbooks, and it's dangerous to see in parliament.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Looks like Gordon Brown is stepping down:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8672859.stm
Looks like Gordon Brown is stepping down:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8672859.stm
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Gormless Gordon is Going
In an obvious attempt to gazump the Tories re the Lib Dems, since it was pretty clear they were about to announce a deal.
It's good to see the back of Gordon, but Mandy's still there, and I can't help thinking that this is a self-serving con, and that as motives go, "to keep the Tories out" is not as near what the country needs as "to stabilize the recovery and avoid a double-dip recession."
Also, no, having Lab-LD-minorities together does *not* make a 60% vote-share party. It makes a group none of whom individually got more than the percentage Labour got, and I wish to fuck these pontificating Mandyites would stop trying to pretend otherwise. Like it or not, the Tories got a bigger share than you.
Gormless Gordon is Going
In an obvious attempt to gazump the Tories re the Lib Dems, since it was pretty clear they were about to announce a deal.
It's good to see the back of Gordon, but Mandy's still there, and I can't help thinking that this is a self-serving con, and that as motives go, "to keep the Tories out" is not as near what the country needs as "to stabilize the recovery and avoid a double-dip recession."
Also, no, having Lab-LD-minorities together does *not* make a 60% vote-share party. It makes a group none of whom individually got more than the percentage Labour got, and I wish to fuck these pontificating Mandyites would stop trying to pretend otherwise. Like it or not, the Tories got a bigger share than you.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Regardless. Even there some kind of an agreement between the Conservatives and the LibDems in the end, it's almost certainly a good thing for the Labour Party for Brown to resign soon imo. They can't risk another election with him and whoever's coming after him has to make the British people comfortable with him for a while.
Regardless. Even there some kind of an agreement between the Conservatives and the LibDems in the end, it's almost certainly a good thing for the Labour Party for Brown to resign soon imo. They can't risk another election with him and whoever's coming after him has to make the British people comfortable with him for a while.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Indeed.
Labour actually can;t afford - cash-wise - to run another election campaign this year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens round about October.
However, it's been said all along that a government needs to start forming by about today, and this will delay that while Mandy picks a new leader and says Clegg "well, this guy isn't a lame duck, so you can go with him."
The irony for Tory-haters being that historically Cameron's deals and alliances so far (in Europe and with the UUP) have led to his own party being marginalized and reduced there, which means allowing *him* to team with the LDs would give a better chance of finishing the Tories off as we know them...
Whereas a Lib-Lab pact now, followed by a second election which neither of them can afford to campaign in, will give the Tories a greater boost later in the year...
Indeed.
Labour actually can;t afford - cash-wise - to run another election campaign this year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens round about October.
However, it's been said all along that a government needs to start forming by about today, and this will delay that while Mandy picks a new leader and says Clegg "well, this guy isn't a lame duck, so you can go with him."
The irony for Tory-haters being that historically Cameron's deals and alliances so far (in Europe and with the UUP) have led to his own party being marginalized and reduced there, which means allowing *him* to team with the LDs would give a better chance of finishing the Tories off as we know them...
Whereas a Lib-Lab pact now, followed by a second election which neither of them can afford to campaign in, will give the Tories a greater boost later in the year...
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
But here's a question- If Gordon quits now, and a new leader won't be in place till September, then who's PM if there's a LibLab deal?
Clegg, becoming PM despite his party coming third? Or current deputy PM (ejected from government for corruption three times so far) Mandy, in which case we might as well give up on this democracy shit.
I've said since 2005 we're effectively in a one-party state, and that'd prove it.
But here's a question- If Gordon quits now, and a new leader won't be in place till September, then who's PM if there's a LibLab deal?
Clegg, becoming PM despite his party coming third? Or current deputy PM (ejected from government for corruption three times so far) Mandy, in which case we might as well give up on this democracy shit.
I've said since 2005 we're effectively in a one-party state, and that'd prove it.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Yeah, resigning now makes more sense if Brown already knows there's going to be a Lib-Con deal and he uses that opportunity to make his resignation more publicly before the coalition or whatever they do is official.
Yeah, resigning now makes more sense if Brown already knows there's going to be a Lib-Con deal and he uses that opportunity to make his resignation more publicly before the coalition or whatever they do is official.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Except the LDs have suddenly now said they're going to hold formal talks with Labour, and we know they met Gordon and Mandy behind the Tories' backs yesterday...
Except the LDs have suddenly now said they're going to hold formal talks with Labour, and we know they met Gordon and Mandy behind the Tories' backs yesterday...
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
I think that's just posturing by Clegg.
I think that's just posturing by Clegg.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
I love the irony of all this, the Tories it seems just wont budge on electoral reform, yet while taking the most votes(Although constitutionally not enough too take power), they could lose the election.
You could not write this stuff.
I love the irony of all this, the Tories it seems just wont budge on electoral reform, yet while taking the most votes(Although constitutionally not enough too take power), they could lose the election.
You could not write this stuff.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
I can't wait so see what the writers of in the thick of it come up with in the next series.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Crikey you couldn't make it up could you?
And now the Tories have put a referendum on the alternative vote system on the table as well!
Have to say if this weekend is an example of PR then I'm not certain I want it; unelected men like Mandy, Allistair Campbell and Lord Adonis making sneaky back room negotiations with the Liberals. Is that really democracy?
I think I prefer the alternative vote idea to full PR. I don't like the idea of basically giving up ever having a government with a strong majority. Irrespective of party at times the country needs radical, major policy change, and decisive leadership. Saw something over the weekend about how Angela Merkal spends most of her time just trying to keep her parliament stable rather than affecting major change.
Assuming there is another election later this year, Lonemagpie makes a good point about the various war chests. I'd imagine the Tories still have money to burn, the Lib Dems will essentially be out of it, and Labour? Well my worry would be the unions offering to bankroll the campaign...but only if their prefered candidate gets in...
Hard to see who the prefered Union candidate might be? Harman wouldn't command enough public support (well only women would vote for her) David Milliband just seems so young (though maybe he could pull a MAtt Smith on us?) Ed Milliband doesn't seem high profile enough. Cruddas is the same but might sneak in. That still leaves Alan Johnson who might be the favourite.
Oh what a tangled web we weave eh? And now the unions are sticking their oar in early. Despite a recession, despite the volcanic ash disaster, BA cabin crew are planning a 20 day strike leading into the summer. Do these people actually want to see BA fold?
Crikey you couldn't make it up could you?
And now the Tories have put a referendum on the alternative vote system on the table as well!
Have to say if this weekend is an example of PR then I'm not certain I want it; unelected men like Mandy, Allistair Campbell and Lord Adonis making sneaky back room negotiations with the Liberals. Is that really democracy?
I think I prefer the alternative vote idea to full PR. I don't like the idea of basically giving up ever having a government with a strong majority. Irrespective of party at times the country needs radical, major policy change, and decisive leadership. Saw something over the weekend about how Angela Merkal spends most of her time just trying to keep her parliament stable rather than affecting major change.
Assuming there is another election later this year, Lonemagpie makes a good point about the various war chests. I'd imagine the Tories still have money to burn, the Lib Dems will essentially be out of it, and Labour? Well my worry would be the unions offering to bankroll the campaign...but only if their prefered candidate gets in...
Hard to see who the prefered Union candidate might be? Harman wouldn't command enough public support (well only women would vote for her) David Milliband just seems so young (though maybe he could pull a MAtt Smith on us?) Ed Milliband doesn't seem high profile enough. Cruddas is the same but might sneak in. That still leaves Alan Johnson who might be the favourite.
Oh what a tangled web we weave eh? And now the unions are sticking their oar in early. Despite a recession, despite the volcanic ash disaster, BA cabin crew are planning a 20 day strike leading into the summer. Do these people actually want to see BA fold?
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
Except that they have done. Like it or not, they didn't lose the election, even if they don't end up forming the government - a fine example of why we need electoral reform.
Cos, like, a Losers' Alliance to keep Mandy in government and give the LDs a vague hint of a referendum on PR isn't exactly the change of govt, stability for economic recovery, and increase in civil liberties by repealing crap like ID cards that the population were actually wanting...
Except that they have done. Like it or not, they didn't lose the election, even if they don't end up forming the government - a fine example of why we need electoral reform.
Cos, like, a Losers' Alliance to keep Mandy in government and give the LDs a vague hint of a referendum on PR isn't exactly the change of govt, stability for economic recovery, and increase in civil liberties by repealing crap like ID cards that the population were actually wanting...
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
The Tories have plenty. The LDs would run out of cash, but not disappear. Labour are already bankrupt - another campaign this year would carry a very real danger of party actually going out business. Which would leave the Tories in charge for a long time to come.
For those who want the Tories to disappear someday, letting them form the government now, so that Labour has time to rebuild its finances and the Tories are rendered more unpopular by the inevitable cuts and whatever voting reforms, would actually be the best way to do it.
The Tories have plenty. The LDs would run out of cash, but not disappear. Labour are already bankrupt - another campaign this year would carry a very real danger of party actually going out business. Which would leave the Tories in charge for a long time to come.
For those who want the Tories to disappear someday, letting them form the government now, so that Labour has time to rebuild its finances and the Tories are rendered more unpopular by the inevitable cuts and whatever voting reforms, would actually be the best way to do it.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
I'm not sure the Tories will ever dissapear, at the end of the day however we end up voting, there'll need to be a right of centre party for some to vote for, and the Tories don't really have any competition outside of the loony far right parties.
Labour are perhaps more endangered because the Lib Dems do sit near to where they are, so people do have a choice...having said that this election proves that even then, and even with an incredibly unpopular leader, some people are just hardwired into voting Labour.
And do you really think the unions would let Labour go bankrupt?
I'm not sure the Tories will ever dissapear, at the end of the day however we end up voting, there'll need to be a right of centre party for some to vote for, and the Tories don't really have any competition outside of the loony far right parties.
Labour are perhaps more endangered because the Lib Dems do sit near to where they are, so people do have a choice...having said that this election proves that even then, and even with an incredibly unpopular leader, some people are just hardwired into voting Labour.
And do you really think the unions would let Labour go bankrupt?
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
You misunderstand- Labour effectively went bankrupt in 2008. A few individuals have been propping them up since then. (what? the party of the people indebted and kowtowing to a few big businessmen...? Hang on...)
As for the unions propping them up - they would, but given the strikes that we'll see in response the cuts, they'll get slaughtered come the next election.
You misunderstand- Labour effectively went bankrupt in 2008. A few individuals have been propping them up since then. (what? the party of the people indebted and kowtowing to a few big businessmen...? Hang on...)
As for the unions propping them up - they would, but given the strikes that we'll see in response the cuts, they'll get slaughtered come the next election.
Re: UK election. So much for our votes counting - worst result possibl
the tories have got stacks of cash cuz they're in Cashcroft and Murdoch's pockets.
as for BA striking, i've said all along, bastards ought to be grateful they've GOT a job. i know i am. sure, i'd like more money - who wouldn't? - but i'm glad i've got a job at all, even if it is on minimum peanuts.
the tories have got stacks of cash cuz they're in Cashcroft and Murdoch's pockets.
as for BA striking, i've said all along, bastards ought to be grateful they've GOT a job. i know i am. sure, i'd like more money - who wouldn't? - but i'm glad i've got a job at all, even if it is on minimum peanuts.