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Weird Things In ST VI: TUC...

1. Praxis. Okay, so Praxis explodes and we’re informed that Kronos’ ozon layer will be destroyed in 50 years. There’s talk of a planet wide evacuation. But wait… We still see Kronos in TNG and DS9… What happened?

This is the impression I got. The Klingon homeworld did eventually lose its ozone layer. However, (and perhaps through Federation help) they moved to a new homeworld that they named Qo'nos (in honor of their original homeworld).

What is my evidence for this questionable claim? Amazingly enough, Enterprise. When we see the Klingon homeworld in ENT, it looks completely different than how we see it in TNG & DS9. True, things could change in 200 years, but everything in general about the planet looked completely different. Also, lets not forget the infamous 5 day journey in "Broken Bow" versus the implied much larger distance in the other series.

Is this canon? No. Just a theory to chew on.


cool topic...thought a lot about this. Long before ENT ever aired, I always squared the Praxis issue in a different way. ENT actually helped buttress the case I think.


We first saw Qo'nos on TNG and it looked like this:



So ~70 years after TUC, the homeworld is gritty and always dark and hazy. The smog seems to hover over their buildings...and it's never sunny. Also, despite huge outdoor walkways that criss-cross through their cities....they're entirely empty. No Klingons walking or even standing around outside...anywhere. Intense pollution and little outdoor activity....these depictions of Qo'nos would be entirely consistent with a world that was still experiencing the long-term results of a planetary atmospheric disaster....like the Praxis explosion.


If it would have ended here, the explanation would have worked fine. We never saw an outside shot of Qo'nos during the TOS era (iirc), so there was nothing to compare it against. After Praxis, maybe the Feds helped in some way to offset the most dire ecological scenarios and the Klingons learned to cope with a newer, more harsh environment...allowing them to stay on Qo'nos.



But then, along came ENT's depiction of Qo'nos:

nossurfaceunexpected.jpg


This strengthens the story imo. So, 200 years before TNG --and over 100 years before the explosion of Praxis in TUC --Qo'nos has blue skies and sunny days. We see a lot people outside doing all sorts of all things. This seems to be a healthy ecosystem....before the planet-wide disaster of Praxis.


These differences could be explained by many things other than a planetary environmental change...but DS9 helps out here.



Qo'nos in DS9....as compared to Qo'nos in ENT:



The color of the planet's atmosphere significantly changed over the course of two centuries. The Praxis explosion explains the atmospheric difference.


It's not canon of course. And this has never been explained on-screen...no doubt because the story was never meant to be a coherent whole. But it makes sense to me this way. The Praxis explosion works to account for these two different depictions. If you accept something alone these lines, the events of TUC tie things together pretty well.


I always saw the different depictions (at least on the planet's surface) as just being different areas of the planet. Compare Egypt, India, New York and Iceland. Same planet, different look. Klingons like to fight amongst themselves a lot, so I can easily see the "capital" moving to the territory of whoever's running the planet at the time.
 
Only flaw in that, M-Red, that's not Qo'nos on DS9 - that's Ty'Gokor. Qo'nos as it appears in Redemption is an atmospherically green world.


well hell, you're absolutely right -- on both counts. I had that saved under Qo'nos...incorrectly. Good catch on "Redemption" too.


And after looking around, there is another DS9 shot that I had forgotten....it's of the High Council on a somewhat brighter day




But...the skies are still grey...could still be because of the polluted atmosphere from the Praxis explosion! And...there's still no Klingons outside either :klingon:


so I'll drop the last 1/3 of the evidence in that first post but hang on for dear life to my explanation :lol:
I always took the overcast skies typically shown on Qo'nos were a nod to John M. Ford's description of Klinzhai in The Final Reflection as perpetually overcast.
 
1. Praxis. Okay, so Praxis explodes and we’re informed that Kronos’ ozon layer will be destroyed in 50 years. There’s talk of a planet wide evacuation. But wait… We still see Kronos in TNG and DS9… What happened?

This is the impression I got. The Klingon homeworld did eventually lose its ozone layer. However, (and perhaps through Federation help) they moved to a new homeworld that they named Qo'nos (in honor of their original homeworld).

What is my evidence for this questionable claim? Amazingly enough, Enterprise. When we see the Klingon homeworld in ENT, it looks completely different than how we see it in TNG & DS9. True, things could change in 200 years, but everything in general about the planet looked completely different. Also, lets not forget the infamous 5 day journey in "Broken Bow" versus the implied much larger distance in the other series.

Is this canon? No. Just a theory to chew on.


cool topic...thought a lot about this. Long before ENT ever aired, I always squared the Praxis issue in a different way. ENT actually helped buttress the case I think.


We first saw Qo'nos on TNG and it looked like this:



So ~70 years after TUC, the homeworld is gritty and always dark and hazy. The smog seems to hover over their buildings...and it's never sunny. Also, despite huge outdoor walkways that criss-cross through their cities....they're entirely empty. No Klingons walking or even standing around outside...anywhere. Intense pollution and little outdoor activity....these depictions of Qo'nos would be entirely consistent with a world that was still experiencing the long-term results of a planetary atmospheric disaster....like the Praxis explosion.


If it would have ended here, the explanation would have worked fine. We never saw an outside shot of Qo'nos during the TOS era (iirc), so there was nothing to compare it against. After Praxis, maybe the Feds helped in some way to offset the most dire ecological scenarios and the Klingons learned to cope with a newer, more harsh environment...allowing them to stay on Qo'nos.



But then, along came ENT's depiction of Qo'nos:

nossurfaceunexpected.jpg


This strengthens the story imo. So, 200 years before TNG --and over 100 years before the explosion of Praxis in TUC --Qo'nos has blue skies and sunny days. We see a lot people outside doing all sorts of all things. This seems to be a healthy ecosystem....before the planet-wide disaster of Praxis.


These differences could be explained by many things other than a planetary environmental change...but DS9 helps out here.



Qo'nos in DS9....as compared to Qo'nos in ENT:



The color of the planet's atmosphere significantly changed over the course of two centuries. The Praxis explosion explains the atmospheric difference.


It's not canon of course. And this has never been explained on-screen...no doubt because the story was never meant to be a coherent whole. But it makes sense to me this way. The Praxis explosion works to account for these two different depictions. If you accept something alone these lines, the events of TUC tie things together pretty well.


Wow. It would in fact be awesome if they gave this a serious thought. But I think it's just coincidence.
 
2. Then, when the peace talks are first mentioned in a Starfleet briefing, someone asks if it means ‘mothballing Starfleet’. Later, dismantling the fleet is mentioned and Chang asks: ‘Are you willing to give up Starfleet?’. It is clearly insinuated that Starfleet’s main purpose and goal has been to defend Earth from Klingons, and that with the prospect of peace, that purpose is lost. I think this is very strange. From the very first episodes, I think Starfleet’s mission was very well addressed: exploration (to seek out new life and new civilizations…). And even if Starfleet was more military in this era, surely there were many more threats than just Klingons…
I always assumed that this was a reference to the fact that the end of the Federation-Klingon Cold War would have meant a large number of starships and star bases would have been scrapped or retired, possibly as part of treaty stipulations. This would also explain why the relatively New Enterprise A was retired before its time; At the end of the Second World War, most of the worlds nations retired most or all of their Navies Battleships; tons of brand new ships were sent to the scrapyard. It makes sense that both the Klingons The Federation Starfleet were called on to retire a certain number of its capital ships in the Khitomer accords. Starfleet probably choose to retire entire classes of older ships, such as the Constitution class, including newer ships of that class, like the Enterprise A, so they could streamline the Starfleet with newer ships like the Excelsior class.
 
2. Then, when the peace talks are first mentioned in a Starfleet briefing, someone asks if it means ‘mothballing Starfleet’. Later, dismantling the fleet is mentioned and Chang asks: ‘Are you willing to give up Starfleet?’. It is clearly insinuated that Starfleet’s main purpose and goal has been to defend Earth from Klingons, and that with the prospect of peace, that purpose is lost.
Nick Meyer's Trek universe is much more militaristic and not much like Gene Roddenberry's universe.
 
2. Then, when the peace talks are first mentioned in a Starfleet briefing, someone asks if it means ‘mothballing Starfleet’. Later, dismantling the fleet is mentioned and Chang asks: ‘Are you willing to give up Starfleet?’. It is clearly insinuated that Starfleet’s main purpose and goal has been to defend Earth from Klingons, and that with the prospect of peace, that purpose is lost.
Nick Meyer's Trek universe is much more militaristic and not much like Gene Roddenberry's universe.

I think Roald is reaching too much, and I disagree with Hober's statement.

Nick Meyer had the audacity to call a duck a duck. Starfleet is a millitary force. Nick Meyer didn't come up with the Horatio Hornblower comparison. Nick Meyer didn't introduce naval ranks and make naval comparisons in Star Trek. Nick Meyer didn't give us phasers, photon torpedos, Klingons, Romulans, the threat of intersteller war several times in 1 or 2 seasons.

Maybe it's more milataristic than the one Roddenberry tried to re-create in 1979 and 1987. But even still, Starfleet does military-like things.

I'm not even clear what people say by "militaristic". Is it because Meyer tries to add some here-and-now realism to the universe (no smoking signs, push buttons, some conflict, some imperfect people, some tight spaces rather than lush comforting sets)? The Enterprise-D certainly got it's ass handed to it before it kept firing phasers to disable weapon systems. That's... military.
 
I always saw the different depictions (at least on the planet's surface) as just being different areas of the planet. Compare Egypt, India, New York and Iceland. Same planet, different look. Klingons like to fight amongst themselves a lot, so I can easily see the "capital" moving to the territory of whoever's running the planet at the time.

I find myself leaning a bit more towards this thought, just because of the mountain range visible in the Enterprise shots that doesn't seem to exist in the shots from TNG (not to mention the missing lake) and massive architechturial differences of the Great Hall. That said, it's doesn't necesarily conflict with M-Red's theory.
 
While I love this movie, it could have been so much more if they had stuck to the TWOK formula in which a "realistic" space navy with adults in adult situations and reactions are depicted.

Specifically glaring in this movie are silly comedic moments that deflate a great, tense plot, and some blatantly expository dialogue that functions almost as an aside to the audience: "If we're all here, where's Sulu?" - "Captain Sulu, on assignment." Don't they know that yet?

Then there are little absurdities that could have probably been easily corrected: Kirk is still conveniently wearing his uniform with the locatable patch during arrest, trial, and exile to a penal colony. And this patch can be spotted from interstellar distances. The Klingons just watch a torpedo bear down on them, which seems to take a while, and don't do much besides quote Shakespeare. The Praxis explosion was big enough to knock out a starship on the other side of the neutral zone, light years away (yet almost instantaneously) but somehow the homeworld survived, mostly.

The Enterprise and the Klingon ship never went to warp, making the attack also convenient. And there's really no way to determine the origin of a torpedo aside from watching it on the screen? No record of transporter activity? I decided to assume the computer was altered (beyond the number of torps), but I wish some bone had been tossed in a line of dialogue to super-nerdy-nitpickers like me involving further subterfuge. Anyone looking out a window at that moment of attack would have undermined the whole conspiracy!
 
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The windows on the Enterprise look out to the side.

None of the compartments are rotated 90 degrees, which would be the thing to allow someone to casually look out the window and observe an invisible ship firing a torpedo.
 
Why would Uhura be expected to speak Klingon? Were radio officers on every naval ship during the cold war expected to speak Slavic languages so flawlessly that it would fool a Ruski?
 
WHy when Martia changed form from Iman into another being, such as that big alien dude did she speak in Iman's voice, but when she changed into Kirk, did she speak in Shatner's voice?
 
The other forms, the brute and the girl, were just constructs she created when she shifted into them, based on this or that species, but not particular individuals. She shifts into Kirk and she's turned into a specific person and could mimic his voice.
 
WHy when Martia changed form from Iman into another being, such as that big alien dude did she speak in Iman's voice, but when she changed into Kirk, did she speak in Shatner's voice?

Because the writers (and the director, I think) were idiots.

It's a standard SF meme -- you change shape, but keep your voice. WHich, of course, totally defies logic. You have a different set of vocal cords, a different throat, different sinuses, everything is different. Your voice should change. But they assume audiences are so stupid they won't realize it's the same person, so... same voice.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Every time I see that I want to kick a sound man in the head.
 
WHy when Martia changed form from Iman into another being, such as that big alien dude did she speak in Iman's voice, but when she changed into Kirk, did she speak in Shatner's voice?

Because the writers (and the director, I think) were idiots.

It's a standard SF meme -- you change shape, but keep your voice. Which, of course, totally defies logic. You have a different set of vocal cords, a different throat, different sinuses, everything is different. Your voice should change. But they assume audiences are so stupid they won't realize it's the same person, so... same voice.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Every time I see that I want to kick a sound man in the head.

But she DID charge her voice. When she was 'little blonde kid' and 'sasquatch' she had a clearly different voice than her initial incarnation. See my quote a few posts prior, and its ridiculous approximation of the voice-change mid-shapeshift...

Then again, what language is everyone speaking, anyway? It's all Invisibly Universally Translated, right...?
 
^^^As I recall the little blonde girl had no lines and the "sanquatch" spoke with Iman's voice.
 
Surely, as a shape-shifter she can reshape her vocal chords as and when she feels like it? Keep her Martia voice by keeping her old vocal chords (in her new body), and then change them later?

Or am I missing something?


Also ealier talk of the Enterprise-A being a renamed old refit connie (hence it being so worn out in STVI) doesn't work - Scotty called it a "new ship" in STV.
 
^^^As I recall the little blonde girl had no lines and the "sanquatch" spoke with Iman's voice.

The little girl did have lines ('hurry, we don't have a lot of time!') and Sasquatch had a woman's voice, but without Iman's accent. Why, I dunno, but watch it again and you'll see. Could be that Iman herself is inconsistent with her accent, but watch the scene where she's speaking while shapeshifting... the line I quoted earlier in the thread 'give a girl a chance...'

Her voice changes during the shift.
 
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