vigilante "justice"

[Deranged Nasat]

WARNING. RANTING AHEAD.

......................................

Okay, Nasat mad. Nasat come onto BBS and rant.

In one of my regular search-the-internet-for-news sessions I came across several reports of different incidents of rather disturbing vigilante justice, in which, essentially, armed thugs abuse and threaten and humiliate non-violent criminals. The thing was, in pretty much every link with comments listed underneath the stories- with the exception of those sites which are straight-forward dedicated to condemning such things- nearly every response was one of support, agreement, calling these thugs "heroes" and laughing at the victim's punishment, even suggesting it should have been more intense. Comments were made that "in Somalia, they would have done (whatever)" and so the victims should consider themselves lucky for not being in Somalia! As if "better than Somalia" is all a society need aim for! Some were saying "they should have done this" or "should have made them do that", all in the name of supposed justice! Because crimes like theft, non-violent minor crimes, justify violence, assault, abuse, etc?! One site- whole list of responses with flags for nationality. A North American site- responses from the USA, Canada, Mexico. So, multiple nations and cultures. We can't blame one culture or nation for this. Pretty much everyone was cheering it on.

Why, gentle readers, do I have to live on a world where 98% of the people around me seem to be hateful, aggressive apes who love any excuse to boost their own sense of security by pounding someone else's face into the dirt?

It scares me, really, because the moment the thin layer of civilization imposed on them all collapses, they all descend into hooting mobs eager to see some torture and humiliation! What toxic people the majority are. Please, please tell me that at least some of you share my outrage here.

I feel that I'm spending my life desperately trying to keep the rest of my people in line before they collapse into hate and fighting and sneering. I'm spread too thin and I can't do it. Surely others must be actively trying to, you know, preserve civilization? Because I don't see it. They just go with the flow, which is oozing down into the mud.

So many people, so brazingly unrepentent in their straightforward nastiness. Is it so effing difficult? You'd be surprised how easy it is NOT to hate someone and jeer for abuse and aggression.

Anyway, I've managed to get at least part of this "out of my system" (not that that ever really works for me).

I try to keep a attitude towards the people around me. I try so damn hard, but gods know they don't make it easy for me!

You may return to your usual activities. Funding for this rant came from grants from the pharmacy that supplies my medication.

 

[KimMH]

The world is a scary place and people who are determined to live in peace and with a sensibility of justice are necessary to lead others. Sometimes it only takes one person to say - "Whoa - this isn't right - there are legal and ethical ways to deal with this issue."

I confess I often wish great harm upon people who have hurt others without thinking about why people hurt others. This of course does not in anyway make it right to hurt others. Not everyone will listen to the voices of reason "crying out in the wilderness" but your function as a peacemaker will always be necessary.

I'm sorry you feel lonely about being a gentle person and you are not in the majority all the time. I'm sure history and human ethics alone will vindicate you.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Agreed. Mobs suck. The system must be given a chance to work, or else there's chaos.

It's like all these people crowing for abuse and mistreatment of sex offenders (or those accused of same). Not only is that wrong on its face, but what if the mob gets the wrong guy? That's been known to happen as well.

 

[KimMH]

^ Agreed. Mobs suck. The system must be given a chance to work, or else there's chaos.

It's like all these people crowing for abuse and mistreatment of sex offenders (or those accused of same). Not only is that wrong on its face, but what if the mob gets the wrong guy? That's been known to happen as well.

I'm often one of the loudest crying for blood when it comes to pedophiles. I don't usually think about due process - I'm usually angry at the idea that people would harm vulnerable people like children. It is very very difficult to stop and think about such touchy subjects. We've all got a long way to go.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The world is a scary place and people who are determined to live in peace and with a sensibility of justice are necessary to lead others. Sometimes it only takes one person to say - "Whoa - this isn't right - there are legal and ethical ways to deal with this issue."

I confess I often wish great harm upon people who have hurt others without thinking about why people hurt others. This of course does not in anyway make it right to hurt others. Not everyone will listen to the voices of reason "crying out in the wilderness" but your function as a peacemaker will always be necessary.

I'm sorry you feel lonely about being a gentle person and you are not in the majority all the time. I'm sure history and human ethics alone will vindicate you.

^ Agreed. Mobs suck. The system must be given a chance to work, or else there's chaos.

It's like all these people crowing for abuse and mistreatment of sex offenders (or those accused of same). Not only is that wrong on its face, but what if the mob gets the wrong guy? That's been known to happen as well.

Thanks, guys. This means a lot to me. This is what I need when I get into one of these sort of moods- people like you reminding me I'm certainly not alone at all. Thanks again.

I'm often one of the loudest crying for blood when it comes to pedophiles. I don't usually think about due process - I'm usually angry at the idea that people would harm vulnerable people like children. It is very very difficult to stop and think about such touchy subjects. We've all got a long way to go.

But that's different because you self-correct. We all experience the emotional pain and outrage that motivates us to lash out. The difference is that civilized people try to contain it, and recognise, as you do, that we need due process, need not to inflict suffering ourselves as we regulate our societies. The problem isn't the outrage, it's that so many people seem to use that as an excuse to inflict suffering and torment on others and jeer and self-congratulate as they do it. There's a world of difference between lashing out in anger at a convicted child rapist and sitting around posting thumbs-up when people are abused and assaulted and tortured (and most of the criminals/victims in the cases I saw had done far, far less than something like child rape! Many were simple theft, vandalism, etc).

 

[John Picard]

All of this has happened before, and will happen again.

 

[KimMH]

yes, and talking about it may help people think about what they think they believe.

 

[Deckerd]

A riot is an ugly thing.

 

[Deks]

Well the problem is that our society is not a 'civilized' one.
People like to think they are civilized, but a very large amount of the population is FAR from it.

For the most part I share your perception of the world.

Just look at the amount of idiotic people in positions of power.
Look at how the 'justice' system works.
Look at how resources are not equally distributed among everybody (despite the fact that they could be and no one would be missing a thing) and essentially one set of people demands the other suffer so they can enjoy life.

The amount of hypocrisy, intolerance, limitations of freedom, rules, taboos, stupidity, lack of control, and prevalence of childlike behaviour (just to name a 'few') among most of the population is laughable to such an extent that I find it ludicrous when someone says we live in a 'civilized society'.

 

[John Picard]

Look at how resources are not equally distributed among everybody (despite the fact that they could be and no one would be missing a thing) and essentially one set of people demands the other suffer so they can enjoy life.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Where is Batman when you need him.

 

[KimMH]

A riot is an ugly thing.

Thank goodness we're Trekkies and not into mobs and riots. Internet arguments and boobs yes, we're lovers not fighters . . .

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Where is Batman when you need him.

Thank goodness we're Trekkies and not into mobs and riots. Internet arguments and boobs yes, we're lovers not fighters . . .

Thanks guys. You're cheering me up quite a bit!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Well the problem is that our society is not a 'civilized' one.
People like to think they are civilized, but a very large amount of the population is FAR from it.

For the most part I share your perception of the world.

Just look at the amount of idiotic people in positions of power.
Look at how the 'justice' system works.
Look at how resources are not equally distributed among everybody (despite the fact that they could be and no one would be missing a thing) and essentially one set of people demands the other suffer so they can enjoy life.

The amount of hypocrisy, intolerance, limitations of freedom, rules, taboos, stupidity, lack of control, and prevalence of childlike behaviour (just to name a 'few') among most of the population is laughable to such an extent that I find it ludicrous when someone says we live in a 'civilized society'.

Indeed. Still, the fact that you and I and others here recognise it and condemn it and work for something better is pleasing- and that's what I think I needed in typing out that rant, to be assured that others see it and that there are a fair number of people who are not like that.

Look at how resources are not equally distributed among everybody (despite the fact that they could be and no one would be missing a thing) and essentially one set of people demands the other suffer so they can enjoy life.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

But the very reason extreme socialism failed was because of the desire to have power, because of greed and the idea that some should be "more equal than others" as it were. It was hypocrisy and the vulnerability of the system to abuse by the greedy, power-hungry and vindictive that made communism in part such a bad idea (I say in part- there were other reasons). You can't justify a supremely capitalist culture by pointing to socialism, because they both fail for the same reason- greed, the very self-centred attitudes Deks was condemning. The solution to the ills that caused extreme socialism and communism to fail so utterly is NOT to simply openly and overtly embrace those ideals, as extreme capitalist societies have.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Where is Batman when you need him.

I wouldn't even want Batman. He's only one man. He can make mistakes. Concentrating all that power in one man's hands is a recipe for disaster.

The power of law enforcement and punishment of criminals must be put in the hands of a system, of legitimate authority, of an ordered authority. At least there you have checks and balances. Cops have Internal Affairs. Politicians can be voted out. There's mechanisms in place to correct mistakes. They aren't perfect, but they're better than just letting things slide.

 

[scotpens]

Look at how resources are not equally distributed among everybody (despite the fact that they could be and no one would be missing a thing) and essentially one set of people demands the other suffer so they can enjoy life.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

And if you try to run a society along those lines -- instead of allowing the free market to determine rewards for skill, effort and innovation -- you'll find yourself with a lot of people who have little ability and a great many needs!

As to the topic, it's understandable why the idea of vigilante justice appeals to many people. We see the failings of the criminal justice system -- can anyone say “O.J.”? -- and we wish things were simpler. We want a Dirty Harry who isn't bound by the rules, who dishes out punishment to the bad guys without bothering with troublesome niceties like probable cause and due process. The good news is that, for the most part, we've moved beyond the Wild West. Those who, given the opportunity, would actually take the law into their own hands are a small minority. Otherwise civilization would have collapsed long ago, and we'd be living in a post-apocalyptic Road Warrior world, where the only law is the law of the jungle: the strong dominate the weak. Or sometimes the strong EAT the weak.

Sorry, I don't know how cannibalism got into this.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Where is Batman when you need him.

I wouldn't even want Batman. He's only one man.

But if he makes himself more than just a man, he becomes something else entirely – a legend, Mr Laser Beam.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The good news is that, for the most part, we've moved beyond the Wild West. Those who, given the opportunity, would actually take the law into their own hands are a small minority. Otherwise civilization would have collapsed long ago, and we'd be living in a post-apocalyptic Road Warrior world, where the only law is the law of the jungle.

I don't know, my friend. A couple of the cases, for example, were in Mexico, and from what I could tell from the comments and from some analyses in the articles, this sort of mob rule pretty much has replaced law in much of that country. Drug gangs, cops, vigilante posses- there is hardly any distinction between any of them. And here's the thing- most of the Mexican commentators liked it that way, and most of the Canadian and American commentators were in favour of introducing vigilante justice in their own countries! And seeing as Mexico, Canada and the USA were all like this, it can't be culturally specific, surely? I have no doubt if the commentators were from European or Asian nations they'd be the same, too. The whole point is, these people are not a minority- they seem to be a majority. And already in my own country I see how criminals and those calling for punishment for criminals are pretty much the exact same- the same desire to hurt, to punish, to humiliate, to form a mob against the other. I have no doubt that given the chance they would all descend into mob anarchy, and as in Mexico the criminals and the enforcers and the concerned neighbours and the cops and so on would all be essentially the same.

 

[Mike Farley]

Where is Batman when you need him.

I'd settle for a streetwise Hercules...

 

[Scout101]

Let's be careful before we come down too hard on those puffing out their chests and wishing for mob justice. Read just about ANY thread here where a crime is talked about (or, sometimes, not even a crime, but perceived misjustice), and many posters HERE take the same exact tone. Wishing for prison rape, violent murder, severe beatings, etc. The BBS can't exactly see the high road on this topic from where I'm standing.

Hell, remember Flux's thread last week? A few people were advocating that he beat the guy's face in for kissing his girlfriend. How's that different? Sure, we can say we're just talking shit, and don't really MEAN it, but that's what you're condemning, so...