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should the doctor be acknowledged as a person?

Kai Winn

Kai Winn

Captain
Captain
watched 'author, author' one of these days again, a masterpiece in many ways better and funnier that tng's related 'the measure of a man'. however, i feel that the doc's hearing was a bit partial, and there were no counter-arguments submitted. there are good ones in my opinion, like the doc being able to disable his ethical subroutines by the push of a button, it happenend so in 'equinox'. then we have a being that like data is far superior to humans, but no longer guided by any morals. i also do not fully understand the logic why genetically enhanced humans remain outlawed, while artificially enhanced artificial life can enjoy the same rights as human beings, and continue to upgrade its abilities.
 
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I will never consider the Doctor to be the same as a person.
He isn't a sentient being, he's simply a combination of subroutines that allow him to appear like he is one. There is no feeling there or even self-awareness, its all just illusory.
 
Preparing to raise shit, I was investigating a Mormon resource website, and I came across the point that they had to address general public criticism wherein the author had to go to all the trouble of asserting the Joseph Smith did think that "coloured people" (temporally specific. Lincoln apologising to Uhura for calling her a Negress.) were real people, did have souls and do go to heaven, yes the same heaven as the white people... Who the frell said that they weren't real people, didn't have souls and didn't go to heaven and how may heavens are there?!!

Holograms are not alive.

Data isn't either.

Moriarty pulled a fast one.

Cheeky bugger.

Soppy hippy bastards on the Enterprise widening the definition of life so arbitrarily.

I do wish when Zimmerman met THAT light bulb that he said something like "Oh no, you're about right on track, basically living out the life I programmed you to, in maybe ten years you'll mary a human and call yourself "Joe"."
 
You_Guyz said:
I will never consider the Doctor to be the same as a person.
He isn't a sentient being, he's simply a combination of subroutines that allow him to appear like he is one. There is no feeling there or even self-awareness, its all just illusory.
Click to expand...
A human brain is just a very complex biological machine. The Doctor isn't different from humans when it comes to sentience.
 
Um. He's better.

So much better than humanoid that it would be an insult to bring him down to our level.

But we do.

We program him to want to be humanoid and want to slum it chasing human experiences through humanoid senses dealing with imposed Humanoid limitations.

I might as well poke your eyes out with a sharpee before teaching you how to read brail, since it's a redundant yet novel talent to master if your eyes still work.
 
RegFan said:
You_Guyz said:
I will never consider the Doctor to be the same as a person.
He isn't a sentient being, he's simply a combination of subroutines that allow him to appear like he is one. There is no feeling there or even self-awareness, its all just illusory.
Click to expand...
A human brain is just a very complex biological machine. The Doctor isn't different from humans when it comes to sentience.
Click to expand...
the brain is the culmination of billions of years of evolution, the owner of it has earned his right to exist, and to be regarded sentient by the countless generations of humans and their predecessors gone trough the grinder of evolution. humans also have limitations. the doc doesn't have them. the doc is the creation of a human brain. it gets more interesting if you are religious. do you believe that god created man to be equal to him, or even superior?
 
I'm not religious myself (because I perceive it as utter nonsense) and think of the Doctor as an artificial lifeform that can be considered a person.

As RegFan wrote, a human being is a complex biological machine in it's own.
We have numerous automated processed within our body that keep us alive for one thing, and the brain is a rather complex central computer that regulates EVERTYHING in our bodies.

To say that WE aren't machines would be idiotic at best.
We simply have certain limitations.

Data and the Doctor do not have certain limitations because they are designed in a way that gives them the ability to live indefinitely (barring an accident that destroys the technology that keeps them going for example or something else).
They are both just as succeptible to 'death' as we understand it as they are.

Do they exceed humans in mental functions?
Of course they do.
Just like you have humans today that are exceedingly smart, intelligent and with eidetic memories, the Doc and Data by definition incorporate all of those aspects because humans themselves perceived those as something to strive for (we strive for 'perfection' and aspects that continuously improve ourselves).

But I also agree with Guy Gardner in the sense that both Data and the Doctor surpass humans and that they were written in a capacity to be 'brought down' to human level.
It's like forcefully taking a person that's unique, and make them behave like everyone else.

I never has a problem with the Doctor or Data being considered a person.

Heck if artificial intelligence emerges in real life, I'd treat it like a real person (in fact, I sometimes already do that to my laptop and computers in general ... I like technology and am open minded).

In my personal opinion though, I find attributing outdated and backwarded aspects such as a 'soul' to any living entity is an insult to ones intelligence.
I agree that there are numerous things we don't understand about life and universe in general, but succumbing to religious views for an explanation instead of saying 'I don't know' is just cowardice and a way of comforting oneself.

'Beliefs' ... lol, such a rediculous concept.
 
I was thinking about Smallville with this...Clark's birth mom Lara was cloned by Zor El and Zor El cloned himself...they were refered to as replicants...even though they were flesh & blood the feeling was that they were not real...the same could be said about Data & The Doctor...they are replicants and not real. Ofcourse they are real but just like Lara's replicant...why was less value placed on her, not only by Jor El's AI in the fortress, but by Lara herself finding out she isn't the original Lara??? I think this is something people will struggle with in the future...what is real? what is more important? where do we place value? This has been going on through out human history...and will keep going I am afraid.

Do I acknowledge The EMH or even Data as a person? Yes.

[Edit] I forgot to say that since Data & The EMH were designed to look like their creators...they can be considered replicants.
 
Yes, the Doctor is a person. I don't care if his intelligence comes from a computer or a brain, the result is the same. He's a fully sentient, artificial life form. In fact I'd even argue that he has a soul.
 
To me, the Doctor can be considered a sentient being. Who are we to narrowly define life to only that which comes from biological processes? It doesn't matter that our brains are made from organic molecules of carbon or that the computers that store his subroutines are made of circuits and data modules, the end result is the same.
 
I'm still on the fence. Is it all illusory - a program so perfect no one can tell the difference? And if the progam itself cannot tell - we're really in for it! In my little corner of the universe I don't see it but that's part of the beauty of willing suspension of disbelief.
 
I'm sorry ,but I've never bought into the fact that the Doctor ,or Data we're people.

They are technology nothing more.
 
I -might- be able to stretch my thinking far enough to accept Data. He was quite unique as artificial lifeforms go. In fact, with the exception of Lore, the technology that makes him work was completely unique.

However, holograms I am not buying, be it The Doctor or Moriarty or whatever. Not only are they simply holograms, but they are controlled by the ship's computer. The Doctor, for example, is in no way separate and distinct from Voyager. If we argue that the doctor is a sentient living being entitled to all the basic rights and liberties in the Federation, then so is Voyager. They are one and the same.
 
ir's more of a symbiotic partnership, just like everyone else "living inside Voyager" however, sometimes they claim that he is a few computer banks built into the walls of sickbay and his image is just broadcast as a "person" and othertimes they seem to imply that Holograms are selfcontained bags of coded light.

But it's definitely cut and past rather than copy and paste, but then back when i only had a 2 gig hard drive of which 90 percent of the space was occupied with windows xp, backing up stuff too much just ends you up in a world of ranshackling.

Data's brain is about the size of our brain. maybe a little heavier, but about the same size. Surely "anyone" could make a computer as "alive" as Data if they weren't limited to bottling everything into a walnut?

I've been thinking that V'Ger must have come back later and done something nice to/for the human race and the Federation to buy some redemption after lilling all those tens of thousands of "people" on "it's" journey to meet it's maker, unless there's also a USS Khmer Rouge and a USS Henrich Himmler in the fleet as well?

Were the exocomps given a planet?

how long till the Binars are more machine than "people" that their world can be declared abandoned and claimed under right of salvage?
 
Should the Doc. be considered a person- No, it isn't human. He's a different type of lifeform.

Should the Doc. be considered sentient- Yes, by "Flesh & Blood" he's overridden all his programming to have complete and total free will. So he should have rights & privilages that make him equal.

the EMH like Data have proven to be more than just technology.
Technology doesn't have a desire for freedom.
The EMH see's himself being tied to Voyager as equal to slavery.
The Moble Emitter was his emancipation.
He's also self aware that while he shares our image, he is not flesh & blood and different from us but yet no different than someones skin color or race.
Nobody programmed him to think that way nor was he created with desires.
 
Mr. Laser Beam said:
Yes, the Doctor is a person. I don't care if his intelligence comes from a computer or a brain, the result is the same. He's a fully sentient, artificial life form. In fact I'd even argue that he has a soul.
Click to expand...


Agreed. Also, I second that "biological lifeforms are machines too" thought.

Cogito ergo sum. That is all definition of sentience I need. He perceives himself as a person, other than other holograms. Sure, turn him off and he's gone, but the same happens if you shoot a human in the brain.

What happens after death is a matter of faith.
 
You know what happens if you shoot Chuck Norris in the brain?

His brain round house kicks the bullet deflecting the bugger into a wall.
 
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