Spocks Kobayashi Maru

[Ronson2k10]

I'm wondering if he himself had to grow through the Kobayashi Maru?

One of the things I liked a lot about the 'Later' version of the test. Was the fact the captain had to make a choice between entering the neutral zone and rescuing them or not violating the treaty (that created the neutral zone in the first place). These had been left out the earlier version. Star Fleet orders the rescue so it's really not even a question as to what to do? More it's a tactical simulation to see if they can pull it off with out getting killed.

When Star Fleet orders the rescue the choice is already made and it's then as they created the neutral zone not a problem for them to violate treaty to complete the rescue. Taking that responsibility away from the Captain. That only leaves tactical decisions as to how to accomplish the rescue. Perhaps the test evolves into one where the captain is forced to make the harder decision weather or not to attempt the rescue but leaving that out made the test a rather simple one to me.

 

[nx1701g]

Since Spock was the person who programmed the Kobayashi Maru scenario I don't think that they'd make him take the test. Also, since he didn't take it in the primary timeline, he may not have had to take it here either.

 

[od0_ital]

^

Yeah, that's what I'm thinkin'...he didn't take it the first time, he wouldn't have taken it this time.

 

[Ronson2k10]

Spock would be programing the scenario as a post graduate of the Academy. Spock the cadet though may have had to take the test? In his mind such a violation of treaty may have precluded him from making the rescue. "The needs of the many out way the needs of the few" The need to prevent interstellar war (with a treaty violation) forcing him to sacrifice the crew of the Maru. They had said during Kirks hearing that he had programed it for the last 4 years not that he had created the test. Even though the tech in the gallery said it was his test. He may have been referring to his version.

I would think also that if Kirk were taking the test for the thrid time they may have wanted to check the simulation. Perhaps even changing it each time so he would face a new question each time. Anytime I've taken a make up test it's been different then the one I had before.

Remember from the later version also there was a briefing to analyze what happened during the test. In that instance Kirk would be some what at a loss to explain ?

I know I'm kind of digging in the dirt here a bit. The Kobayashi Maru was one of the best parts of the TWOK. Kirks was one that was pretty good but I found it lacking in a few area's. The seemed to take a more predictable approach to that aspect of the story. Also by taking the decision out of the hands of the captain I fail to see how it is no win scenario?

However if Star Fleet ordered him to abandon the Kobayashi Maru in favor of keeping the treaty intact then there could be a no win scenario.

You then are left with the same decision as the later version.

- Rescue ship (save the lives but violate orders and the treaty)
- Abandon the rescue (Obey orders and keep the treaty but loose the lives)

As Spocks solution lets say could have included the second answer he may have in recreating the test try to find a way for the cadets to see his reasoning?

Just a bit of postulating on my part....

PS: Aw yes I remember the conclusion to the TWOK when he tells Kirk he never took the test and asked him about his solution.

Kirk "It was the best of times it was the worst of times"
Bones "What's that Jim"
Kirk "Something Spock was trying to tell me - on my birthday"
Bones "How do you feel"
Kirk "I feel ... young"

One of my favorite parts of that movie too.

 

[cwnorma]

I think that it is likely the scenario changed somewhat from test to test. Otherwise Cadets would "crib" it and pass on strategies to their peers.

 

[Alrik]

A couple of things.

First, in JJ's Trek, Spock came up with the test, so of course, he wouldn't haven take it. Which leads to point two. In the prime universe it was Saavik that asked for Kirk's solution, not Spock. As Spock way dying, he mentions that he never took the test, but asks Kirk how he did in facing the 'no win' scenario.

Interesting ideas though.

 

[Ronson2k10]

A couple of things.

First, in JJ's Trek, Spock came up with the test, so of course, he wouldn't haven take it. Which leads to point two. In the prime universe it was Saavik that asked for Kirk's solution, not Spock. As Spock way dying, he mentions that he never took the test, but asks Kirk how he did in facing the 'no win' scenario.

Interesting ideas though.

Yep I had just remembered that too as I had re-read my post. Saavik's question comes after McCoy says "You're looking at the only person to ever beat the no win scenario" So she naturally wants to know what he did. Kirk "I changed the conditions of the test" and got a commendation for creative thinking.. Unlike in the new universe he is reprimanded

In the new trek though there is no mention of him creating the test in so far as the head of the academy says he had wrote the test for the last four years. So in that it seems to me that someone else had created the test before him. It could also be that the test had come into being after he had graduated and was then tasked with writing up each scenario. Something I hadn't thought of..

I still think the decision should be as Kirk had described it. A test of character. Weighing the risks to your ship in crew and the bigger risk of getting into a situation you can't get out of. Perhaps a bit more of what happened in ST6 where the Enterprise B was tasked with rescuing the stranded ships caught in the Gravametric riptide of the Nexus. They had tried several solutions without success. Perhaps a scene where Kirk had failed the test trying out those and being flustrated with the test showing his disdain by inserting the code to 'cheat' would have been cool too. We all expected the scene where he was successful but to see him not pass would have been a surprise?

I loved Pine as Kirk in that situation though. He was trying hard to convey the essence of Shatners Kirk. Although I think he probably would have run out of apple before he could finish with the big bites he was taking (perhaps more then one apple was needed?).

 

[KobayashiMaru13]

The way Spock had programmed it for those 4 years, it wasn't "do you go into the Zone after the Kobayashi Maru or disobey orders for the good of the many"; it was, that when faced with a no-win scenario (which implies that no matter what you had to go in) you can in the face of certain death, experiance fear, and keep control of one's self and one's crew dispite fear. Spock created it to see if the candidate had that quality of control and command, and would thus be a possible future, and capable captain.

 

[The Badger]

Regarding how the nu-Trek version has Star Fleet order the rescue, whilst Prime universe has it as a personal choice. I'm wondering if this may be a result of the destruction of the Kelvin. Perhaps in the nu-universe the Fleet likes to keep a tighter reign on it's captains, and does not allow them quite as much autonomy?

 

[DonIago]

^That's kind of an interesting point, since when Pike meets Kirk doesn't he mention something about how captains who exercise their own initiative more freely is something that Starfleet's moved away from?

 

[Franklin]

I'm not sure if giving the captain the chance to make the decision v. ordering the captain to make the rescue makes much of a difference in the test.

First, even with free choice, what cadet is going to choose to not make the rescue attempt? It would ruin a career before it even started.

Second, Starfleet couldn't order a ship to make what would be a known suicide (or no-win) mission. It is a risky and dangerous mission, something the cadet may be ordered to do in the future. But it's only after the mission unfolds that the cadet realizes it's a trap and a no-win situation. That's where the test of character comes in. How will the cadet react to a totally unexpected event from which there is no escape?

The test of character is the same in both cases.

 

[DonIago]

Actually, in the novel "Kobayashi Maru" (the TOS one), Sulu does refuse to order his ship to violate the neutral zone. There's no firm reason to believe the KM is a real ship, and Sulu is concerned that the whole thing could be a Klingon ploy.
I could also see Vulcan captains refusing to authorize the rescue given the potential costs.
I think in the TWOK novelization one alternative approach that some people had used was sending in a shuttle to firmly establish whether the KM existed.

I may be misreading you, but I'm pretty sure Starfleet absolutely -can- authorize suicide missions if necessary. If ordering a ship into the neutral zone would allow for millions of lives to be saved elsewhere, I'm pretty sure they'd do it.

 

[Ronson2k10]

Perhaps if they wanted to simulate the fear involved in that decision. They could use the Kelvin as a simulation. Where you are the first officer and then faced with death of your captain become captain. Much like Saavik had to deal with when Spock was killed during the simulation. As he was a captain at the time. It does seem almost cruel on Spocks part to test Kirk in such a fashion. Knowing as Kirk surmises the conditions his father faced. Almost an attempt to see if he was his fathers son. However they never met each other so any experience is only one of star fleet record 'Pikes Dissertation' but there were also survivors.

It's not only a question of it being a possible ambush but a treaty violaton. Saavik was able to pull up the data on the ship (ships registry). In Saavik's case she clearly choose to violate treaty to attempt the rescue. I think Sulu was going to remind her that a ship entering the neutral zone is subject to capture by the other side when she cut him off "I know my responsibilities mister"

In the new version things happen automatically. Kirk never orders the rescue attempt. Something a bit weird about that?

Even in current military practice you can refuse an order if it is unlawfully given or the order itself violates code. I would be hard pressed to believe Star Fleet could order a 'treaty violation' to take place. As Pike had told Kirk 3 years ago "Star Fleet is a peace keeping and humanitarian armada". So an order to violate a peace treaty would seem pretty incredible.

That's why in the latter version it's up the captain to decide. Weather the risk to your ship, crew and the federation is worth the lives of the KM crew. Where that to not offer assistance to a ship in distress is also a serious violation hence the no win scenario. If as above Star Fleet is a humanitarian armada to not offer assistance flies in the face of that.

As captain your choice is do you violate one rule or the other and do you risk your ship and face capture or death to offer assistance to another.

They did draw conclusions a bit to quickly to get to the first meeting of Spock and Kirk at the hearing.

"Maintaining control over oneself and ones crew in the face of certain death". However by ordering the rescue Star Fleet takes control out of his hands. In many ways they also assume the fear as well. Your commander could order you to do a dangerous task but you would think that such an order would come from careful consideration of the circumstances eg - they wouldn't act as Saavik had done in the later verson.

So by ordering the rescue they messed that up. Forcing the issue and not giving the cadet a chance to face fear. An error in writing probably but in there perhaps to show the difference in the two scripts (STXI and TWOK). I do believe they kind of short shifted that sequence to get to the important first meeting between Spock and Kirk. IMO they wasted a chance to have an important character development. Something that is quite key to Kirk's personality was left on the side of the road in this instance.

The test really isn't CAN you rescue the ship without getting killed it's WOULD you risk your life to save someone else? From a captains standpoint that is magnified to include the crews of both ships. A subtle difference to be sure but an important one though.

 

[Timo]

It makes relatively little sense to do this test during the final year of study if it's something that makes or breaks a good skipper... A "test of character" should be performed in the entry exams, not while graduating.

So one is tempted to think that there can be many correct "answers" to the test, and that one's future career is decided on which correct answer the testee chooses. Hot shots are useful in some roles, cool and logical thinkers in others, masterful fighters who don't mince philosophy during fights are good for yet another kind of command, and there's always demand for those who debate the finer points of semantics when faced with something like this.

We don't know if Kirk's answer (sabotaging and then mocking the test) would have been correct. He got called in front of a board of some sort to explain himself, but we don't know if the board would have approved of his explanation or not since the proceedings were interrupted. Certainly the Prime Universe Kirk's answer (sabotaging but perhaps not mocking the test) was considered correct by the board that he had to face...

It might in fact be pretty much impossible to come up with a wrong answer in this test. Starfleet would already have decided to make some use of the officer in training here, and unless he, she or it went criminally insane or died in the test, Starfleet would proceed as planned.

As Pike had told Kirk 3 years ago "Star Fleet is a peace keeping and humanitarian armada".

Actually, Pike told Kirk that the Federation is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada. Perhaps he was going to go on to say that Starfleet caters for no such nonsense, and that he wants Kirk there to kick some ass and to put these peacenik politicians back to the right track?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

Spock never took the test until he sacrified himself for the crew.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Truth is, in on screen Canon, it has never been established how long the test has been in existence.

Starfleet seems to have an overriding policy of providing aid whenever needed, so whether they are ordered into the Neutral Zone, or whether they go in as a best practice is immaterial.

The bottom line seems to be that the Kobayashi Maru is a Federation vessel in distress.

As for Spock never taking the test:

If we assume Spock tweaks and programs the test in both Prime and Laternate realities, it is quite possible that he would be precluded from taking the test.

If Spock had a hand in creating the test initially (being a seasoned officer charged with refining the testing scenarios, and reasoning the necessity for the Kobayashi Maru "no-win" scenario as a character assessment), he would have never had a reason to take the test in the first place, since it did not exist while he was at the academy as a cadet.

It may also be that the test is changed and tweaked often as procedures are changed and regulations are changed, which would indicate that the version of the test Kirk took was less developed than the one we saw in TWOK (Alternate Reality notwithstanding).

 

[OneBuckFilms]

There is also dialogue in the film just after Saavik took the test, between Kirk and Spock leaving the simulator room.

KIRK: They destroyed the simulator room, and you with it.
SPOCK: The test frequently rweak havoc, with both students and equipment. As I recall, you took the test 3 times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique.
KIRK: You having the virtue of not having tried. (or something like that).

 

[M'Sharak]

There is also dialogue in the film just after Saavik took the test, between Kirk and Spock leaving the simulator room.

KIRK: They destroyed the simulator room, and you with it.
SPOCK: The test frequently rweak havoc, with both students and equipment. As I recall, you took the test 3 times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique.
KIRK: You having the virtue of not having tried. (or something like that).

If I'm not mistaken, the line was:

KIRK: It had the virtue of never having been tried.

("It" being Kirk's third-round solution)

 

[DonIago]

^Agreed.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I stand corrected.