Datas Angry...Before the emotion chip

[chakotay_lover]

I just watched Redemption part II and Data was a Captain of a starship with a disagreeable second officer, and he got angry when having to give him orders, there was a definite moment of emotion. I found it strange that he could act that way because it was so out of character for the actor. Up until this epsiode they did a good job with keeping Data unemotional(except for the laugh) anyway what do you guys think? Do you think he showed emotion in Redemption II?

 

[CaptainStoner]

I haven't seen that ep in a while, but I remember more instances of Data showing anger/annoyance in the series.

The way out seems to be to suggest that although his literal feeling of emotion was not present, there were subroutines developed that would show facial expressions and vocal intonation based on what other crewmembers do.

For instance, for command duties, he would be borrowing inflections from Riker and/or Picard, both of whom could go from friendly to quite stern whenever necessary.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Spiner portrayed Data as capable of emotion from the beginning of the series, and continued to do so after the character was proclaimed as emotionless in "The Ensigns Of Command."

Spiner was simply subtle. One of my favorite Data-is-pissed moments was in "Skin Of Evil," after Armus has killed Tasha Yar. "I think you should be destroyed."

Of course, there was also his firing that ray-gun in anger at Kevas Fajo in "The Most Toys." Android had had enough.

Data was the Tin Woodman from the film version of The Wizard Of Oz - he already had everything he needed when he came to the Emerald City, he simply didn't know it.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Data was very good at mimicking the responses of humans so he could fit in or if the situation called for it. Remember in In Theory when he yelled at Jenna so they could have a lover's quarrel? He was designed to be a very human like android so it was natural he wouldn't just speak and respond in a monotone.

 

[Christopher]

^Exactly. Data wasn't actually angry in "Redemption, Part II." He recognized that taking a firm, forceful tone of voice with his human subordinates was an effective way of evoking the desired response from them, so he faked it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

He was angry at Kevas Fajo and at Armus. And he was quite hurt by Ishara Yar's betrayal in "Legacy" - otherwise the final scene and final shot of the episode mean nothing.

A number of the writers - I can't say "most" without guessing - on the TNG staff disagreed with the "no emotions" edict when it came down in Season Three, and Spiner continued to play Data just as he had for the two years or so when it was assumed that he had feelings.

 

[Anji]

I'm one of the school that believes Data had emotions. He wanted a daughter didn't he? I can't think of a stronger emotion than that.

 

[DonIago]

(shrugs) Data started a relationship as an experiment, I see no reason why he couldn't have decided to have a child for the same reason.

I'm rather curious about the idea of having a child myself sometime, but I don't want one per se.

 

[Voyagerian]

He was angry at Kevas Fajo and at Armus. And he was quite hurt by Ishara Yar's betrayal in "Legacy" - otherwise the final scene and final shot of the episode mean nothing.

A number of the writers - I can't say "most" without guessing - on the TNG staff disagreed with the "no emotions" edict when it came down in Season Three, and Spiner continued to play Data just as he had for the two years or so when it was assumed that he had feelings.

As soon as I read the thread topic, and started to think about instances, 'The Most Toys' popped right up, too. He'd been kept by a totally selfish, arrogant, cruel man who had no repect for life-even a woman who'd been loyal to him-or perhaps who moreso feared him, and he killed her as if she were nothing..as Armus so callously took the life of a brave, beautiful, and good young woman who Data most certainly was affected by-Psi 200 virus, or not....and I remeber him taking the little holo of Tasha out once, turning it on, and staring at it....as if...and the ceremony showed us 'he got it'...(Beautiful music in that powerful scene)...or what about in 'The Offspring', when Beverly said, after Data left her office, saying he was not capable of being the father to Lal that in other words a human might, etc....'now, why do I find that so hard to believe'...Data, embued for years with the basic rights to all for life, and peace, seeing by human example what counted most, found these acts to be morally contrary to what he'd been taught, and a total violation of something he so desperately sought...and acheived much along the way. Is this not why he has been so special to so many?

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

He was angry at Kevas Fajo and at Armus. And he was quite hurt by Ishara Yar's betrayal in "Legacy" - otherwise the final scene and final shot of the episode mean nothing.

A number of the writers - I can't say "most" without guessing - on the TNG staff disagreed with the "no emotions" edict when it came down in Season Three, and Spiner continued to play Data just as he had for the two years or so when it was assumed that he had feelings.

As soon as I read the thread topic, and started to think about instances, 'The Most Toys' popped right up, too. He'd been kept by a totally selfish, arrogant, cruel man who had no repect for life-even a woman who'd been loyal to him-or perhaps who moreso feared him, and he killed her as if she were nothing..as Armus so callously took the life of a brave, beautiful, and good young woman who Data most certainly was affected by-Psi 200 virus, or not....and I remeber him taking the little holo of Tasha out once, turning it on, and staring at it....as if...and the ceremony showed us 'he got it'...(Beautiful music in that powerful scene)...or what about in 'The Offspring', when Beverly said, after Data left her office, saying he was not capable of being the father to Lal that in other words a human might, etc....'now, why do I find that so hard to believe'...Data, embued for years with the basic rights to all for life, and peace, seeing by human example what counted most, found these acts to be morally contrary to what he'd been taught, and a total violation of something he so desperately sought...and acheived much along the way. Is this not why he has been so special to so many?

I didn't see the Most Toys as an example of anger. I think it was a little more chilling that Data's decision to kill Kevas seemed perfectly logical to him. As for Tasha, well his mental pathways became accustomed to her sensory input. Hey if Tasha had sex with me a whole lot of my mental pathways would get accustomed to her.

 

[DevilEyes]

There was an earlier thread with poll - Does Data have emotions without the chip? http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=3092609#post3092609

Spiner portrayed Data as capable of emotion from the beginning of the series, and continued to do so after the character was proclaimed as emotionless in "The Ensigns Of Command."

Spiner was simply subtle. One of my favorite Data-is-pissed moments was in "Skin Of Evil," after Armus has killed Tasha Yar. "I think you should be destroyed."

Of course, there was also his firing that ray-gun in anger at Kevas Fajo in "The Most Toys." Android had had enough.

Data was the Tin Woodman from the film version of The Wizard Of Oz - he already had everything he needed when he came to the Emerald City, he simply didn't know it.

I agree. There are many times when it is obvious that Data has emotions, and Spiner certainly played him that way.

However, it is perfectly reasonable that Data might really be convinced that he does not have emotions, because he isn't sure what they are and how to recognize them in himself. He has no point of reference. When it comes to short-term feelings such as anger, fear, joy, his feelings might be weaker than those of biological beings, and unlikely to surface as often - particularly since he doesn't feel them on the physical, hormonal level. Say, he would recognize that a certain situation is dangerous, but would not feel the adrenaline rush that accompanies fear ("fight or flight" biological reaction), or would find a certain person very annoying or worthy of contempt, but, again, would not have the physical, hormonal response people feel when they are angry (unless he has the chip). He would just be able to express his attitudes, his pleasure or displeasure with someone or something by words, or mimicking the responses (heightened tone of voice, grimaces etc.) that he has seen other people give in similar situations. But he is certainly able to feel long-term emotions such as love, friendship, loyalty, loss, a need to be treated well, or even empathy (caring about the rights of other artificial beings).

 

[Praxius]

^Exactly. Data wasn't actually angry in "Redemption, Part II." He recognized that taking a firm, forceful tone of voice with his human subordinates was an effective way of evoking the desired response from them, so he faked it.

That's sort of the way it sounded for me as well.

Going from memory, since I haven't seen that episdoe in years, I assume this was the one where they were trying to setup the detection net to find Romulans supplying the Duras family and when Data had to take command of a Starship?

If so, then what I remember was some dork constantly second guessing and doubting Data's orders. From my understanding of the whole situation, time was running out, and Data entertained his questioning crap for far too long, realized that trying to constantly explain himself everytime he makes a decision wasn't going to progress things very far, and was a good episode to show exactly how Data would handle a command situation.

I am sure that during his time in Starfleet he has learned how to deal with people like that and knew full well the any other commander in his position wouldn't have tollerated it as long as he did, that and from memory again, I believe he was having his own doubts about humanoids taking orders from him, so it was more so an episode of him trying to figure out what emotions to simulate/express to those around him to do what he needs them to do.

I wouldn't equate it to anything emotional, but merely trying to be assertive in his command role so that others take him seriously.

 

[CoveTom]

I always thought that part of the point of the Data character was, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, the Wizard of Oz syndrome -- that he always had that which he was searching for. In other words, while his level of emotion does differ from biological life forms, he has always had the capacity for emotion. In a way very similar to Spock, he simply presents them as something other than what they are.

For example, Data has always had the capacity to form bonds of friendship, to care about someone, to be upset if they are lost. However, he has convinced himself that his caring for his crew mates is not an emotional bond of friendship, but simply his "neural pathways becoming accustomed to their inputs" or something along those lines.

No, I maintain that Data has had emotions from the beginning. He's just not been fully aware of them or what they are.

 

[flightmech73]

^Exactly. Data wasn't actually angry in "Redemption, Part II." He recognized that taking a firm, forceful tone of voice with his human subordinates was an effective way of evoking the desired response from them, so he faked it.

I second this thought. He understands being human enough to know when to be stern.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I assumed he was following his command training when he raised his tone of voice, since the x.o was being nearly insubordinate.

Tuvok did a similar thing with Harry in Voyager.

Right afterward, his demeanor returned to normal-Data's normal.

But one curious thing; in Skin of Evil, Data is describing Armus lack of decent qualities, and says he should be destroyed.

That seems normal, since Data is supposed to have some type of moral programming. Not necessarily anger, but his programmed response to immoral behavior or acts.

But then Armus says something about a judgment coming from a machine, and Data looks like he's about to step forward to do something, until Picard calls his name to restrain him.

 

[CoveTom]

^ Once again, I maintain that's explainable by the fact that, in some form, Data -does- have emotions. Always has. In "Skin of Evil," Data was dealing with the loss of Tasha Yar. He had been intimate with her. He cared deeply for her. This is evidenced by his keeping her portrait, as was addressed in "The Measure of a Man." Sure, Data was not seething with rage as a human might be, but he was still affected enough that, in the right situation, he was willing to display anger and hostility toward Armus.

 

[Timo]

It's fundamentally a question of who is believing what about Data's emotions - or, really, what Data is believing about his own emotions.

It's perfectly valid for Data to think that he has none. His father would have taught him that, as in his quest for perfection he wouldn't have settled for anything less than the emotion chip upgrade he had already worked out. Sure, Data would have emotional-looking responses - but he would simply accept them as "good acting". All emotion is "faked", after all: it's merely a set of learned responses to familiar situations. Humans learn to fake emotions through having a childhood. Data may have had an accelerated childhood, one without physical changes, but he had one nevertheless. He would simply be more aware and analytical about what happened to him through his childhood, and would treat his learned responses as something "cold", distinct from the human ways.

Both humans and Data-like machines would also have some built-in programming from the moment of their birth, but it would not necessarily qualify as emotions. Many a human would have been taught that he or she doesn't have "proper" emotions, and would have come to accept this; in many cases, this would even be objectively true, as the set of emotions that allows working in a social environment is actually a rather difficult achievement, and all sorts of medical or developmental/life-historical problems might prevent one from acquiring the necessary set.

Whether the emotion chip upgrade really added significantly to Data's capability for emotion is unknown. It definitely gave him the feeling that he was having emotions, though (largely by exposing him to some very intense ones), and that's all that matters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kirkman1987]

I can't beleive you guys haven't brought up when Data went Berserk and tore that Borg drone apart with his bare hands.

STOP IT!

 

[Praxius]

I assumed he was following his command training when he raised his tone of voice, since the x.o was being nearly insubordinate.

Tuvok did a similar thing with Harry in Voyager.

Right afterward, his demeanor returned to normal-Data's normal.

But one curious thing; in Skin of Evil, Data is describing Armus lack of decent qualities, and says he should be destroyed.

That seems normal, since Data is supposed to have some type of moral programming. Not necessarily anger, but his programmed response to immoral behavior or acts.

But then Armus says something about a judgment coming from a machine, and Data looks like he's about to step forward to do something, until Picard calls his name to restrain him.

Yeah I actually watched that episode over the weekend. I honestly don't think Data's character was completely evolved in the first couple of seasons (ie: Farpoint Episode when he was in the Holodeck whistling, hears Riker and then smirks)

I think his response in Skin of Evil might have had to do with his humanity development not being fine tuned back then as it goes for episode writting.

 

[Praxius]

^ Once again, I maintain that's explainable by the fact that, in some form, Data -does- have emotions. Always has. In "Skin of Evil," Data was dealing with the loss of Tasha Yar. He had been intimate with her. He cared deeply for her. This is evidenced by his keeping her portrait, as was addressed in "The Measure of a Man." Sure, Data was not seething with rage as a human might be, but he was still affected enough that, in the right situation, he was willing to display anger and hostility toward Armus.

To me it only seemed like the logical course of action based on his understanding.

Armus didn't care about the well being of others, needlessly killed one of their own and gave intentions of perhaps killing another or all of them.... thus the logical course of action is to remove this unpredictable and very high-risk entity as a threat to ensure the security of your fellow crew and ship, since it shown that it could not be reasoned with in any sense of the term.