So, poor filmmaking is to blame? I can buy that.
Alternate reality vs. altered timeline
- Thread starter lorrak7
- Start date
The episode you are looking for Is City on the Edge of Forever. In that episode it is clearly shown that in original Trek if you alter the past you affect your own timeline. You do not create an alternate timeline . That is TOS Spock's understanding of the effects of changing the past because he lived through it. In this episode he tells Kirk that if you save Edith Keeler or allow McCoy to save her millions will die who did not die before. This is the exact same thing that happens in Trek 2009 with the destruction of Vulcan. Millions died who did not die before Nero altered the past but the Spock from Trek 2009 never even considers undoing what Nero has done because he is from a reality where if you change the past you do not affect your own timeline you merely create an alternate one. He is not TOS Spock.
Yes, Orci explicitly stated that in his universe, time travel doesn't work as in any previous Trek episode. Yesterday's Enterprise, City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, The Voyage Home, Time's Arrow, they didn't happen. Otherwise Spock would be going back to undo the damage he did, saving those Vulcans, Prime Directive, blabla. But he doesn't do it, because he can't. And, in Orci's retconned universe, he never could.
Yeah, but the magic red matter (the stuff that either sends you back in time or blows up planets) means they can use it as an excuse to change the rules.
The pre-Kelvin stuff and Spock Prime are from the TOS timeline that we all know and love. It's purely bad writing and/or filmmaking if they haven't communicated that idea clearly enough.
Essentially the screen writers painted themselves into a corner. They wanted to include the TOS Spock but at the same time create an alternate universe that freed the characters from being stuck to the events in established continuity. Unfortunately doing this via the alternate timeline method makes it clear that the Spock in Trek 2009 is not TOS Spock.
I don't want it to be new and unrelated to previous Trek. I am merely evaluating the evidence as presented in Trek 2009 as compared to what we know to be true from Tos. The Spock in Trek 2009 is not Spock from TOS or he would be trying to restore the timeline to its previous form. And my reasoning is quite logical based on the facts.
Not really. Your logic is based on the fact that something happens in this movie differently to how it happened in some old Trek episodes. By that reasoning, you may as well say that any continuity error in any film or episode is not actually an error and is in fact taking place in an alternate timeline.
Exactly and I maintain that time travel doesn't work in Trek 2009 as in any previous Trek episode because the Tos universe is never depicted in any form in Trek 2009. Spock "Prime" is not from the original series universe. The screen writers had to do this in order to free the characters from established continuity but they also want us to believe that Spock Prime is the Spock from the TOS universe but the facts show this to be impossible.
I don't believe the red matter has any time traveling powers. All it does is create wormhole/blackhole. (Which would be an implosion.)
Rewriting how the (fictional) time travel physics is supposed to work is much more than a simple continuity glitch. If Picard had hair in the Academy days or not doesn't have any effect on anything. But the decision to make time travel ONLY work according to the MWI (as stated many, many, many times by the writers) deletes entire episodes and arcs.
So your saying that the major episode of the original series that depicts the effects of altering the past is and is considered a classic is irrelevant. Must be nice to try and support you argument by throwing out pieces of evidence that don't support you position. Furthermore the screen writers tie the movie to some old Trek episodes and any evidence found therein by asserting that Spock Prime is TOS Spock.
Fine then the timeline is overwritten. Pre-Kelvin stuff is still TOS though.
LOL What?
Again, they just messed it up.Not really, if you're really nitpicky about stardates and stuff.
DON'T LET THEM OFF THE HOOK!
My statement was quite clear. Which part of it didn't you understand?
You know just saying things like it's TOS pre-Kelvin and it's clearly TOS Spock don't mean much when you don't support these statements with facts or evidence. Just saying it doesn't make it accurate. Support your position.
There are other episodes and films that depict time travel as well. You can't simply declare "City" as the standard that must be adhered to, no matter how much you like it (happens to be my favorite, too).
BTW, Spock can't set time to rights even if he buys into the Guardian's version of time travel, because he arrives thirty years after the events that alter the timeline and has no method of time travel available to him.
No it's not. That's only one of a number of TOS episodes and TOS-based films that include time travel. "The episode I am looking for" is all of them or any of them, and they establish nothing consistent about time travel.
In that episode, and in that instance utilizing that method of time travel.
You have failed to demonstrate that this single example sets an invariable standard for TOS and all of Trek continuity.
Trek contradicts itself. Cherry-picking a favorite episode and insisting that the logic of all Star Trek must follow its example proves nothing and is evidence of nothing.
Spock Prime is TOS Spock - there is no other, until Quinto appears as Spock. There is no suggestion anywhere in the film that there are a multiplicity of alternate universes from which he might have appeared. The intentions of the producers are explicit, and they rule out your hypothesis.
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