Another Pic Surfaces of Khan's Baby from TWOK

[Maurice]

Also not in the script was the impromptu and controversial, Terrell-falling-down-the-hill scene, which wasn't able to be used due to the potential of a Stunt Performers Guild censure, after Nick Meyer had a white stunt person put into blackface to do the stunt for Paul Winfield. The correct protocol was to request an African American stuntman at least a day before.

...that's a joke, right?

Sadly, no.

However, it wouldn't have been the first time a Star Trek production had ran afoul of the acting guilds. Roddenberry got slapped on Star Trek: The Motion Picture for the Rec Room scene; the various fans in the crew weren't members of the Screen Extras Guild. Yes, there was a guild for extras; now they're just part of SAG.

I really would like a source on these claims as I've heard actors tell these things, but I've yet to see them substantiated. I even tried scanning Variety's archives to see if there was any mention. I remember reading that at the time the Rec Deck scene was shot the production used a rule that allowed use on non-union extras if the number of extras exceeded a certain threshold. I also recall reading that this was changed after TMP, possibly due to union complaints. I will check through my morgue and see what I can find.

That's why I've always found Harlan Ellison's rant about how one of his westerns was butchered by the director for not shooting his script as it was written to be laughable; the director shoots what he wants, and the writer is pretty much the least important person in the process.

That's insulting to the writer. No script, no movie. Sure, the director can shoot the coverage any way s/he chooses, and once the production is going writers are typically ignored, but to say they are the least important person in the process is like saying the architect is the least important person in the process of building a skyscraper.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I really would like a source on these claims as I've heard actors tell these things, but I've yet to see them substantiated. I even tried scanning Variety's archives to see if there was any mention. I remember reading that at the time the Rec Deck scene was shot the production used a rule that allowed use on non-union extras if the number of extras exceeded a certain threshold. I also recall reading that this was changed after TMP, possibly due to union complaints. I will check through my morgue and see what I can find.

Bjo Trimble says in an interview: "Gene thought of asking the Screen Extra's Guild (they were separate from Screen Actor's Guild in the 60s) for permission to "go on the street" for half the people needed on that rec deck. So Trek fans were invited to a casting call." That could be true, but I doubt it -- the Extras Guild would have been taking work away from their members by granting Gene permission. My hunch? Gene ignored Hollywood's guilds, much as he did with Lincoln Enterprises on a routine basis by selling scripts.

That's why I've always found Harlan Ellison's rant about how one of his westerns was butchered by the director for not shooting his script as it was written to be laughable; the director shoots what he wants, and the writer is pretty much the least important person in the process.

That's insulting to the writer. No script, no movie. Sure, the director can shoot the coverage any way s/he chooses, and once the production is going writers are typically ignored, but to say they are the least important person in the process is like saying the architect is the least important person in the process of building a skyscraper.

I'm not saying anything that a Hollywood writer wouldn't say. Is it insulting? Well, in the sense that the Hollywood system and the writers' role in the pecking order there is insulting. *shrug*

 

[Maurice]

Bjo Trimble says in an interview: "Gene thought of asking the Screen Extra's Guild (they were separate from Screen Actor's Guild in the 60s) for permission to "go on the street" for half the people needed on that rec deck. So Trek fans were invited to a casting call."

In other words, a fan, well connected as she was, not a member of the production.

I'm not saying anything that a Hollywood writer wouldn't say. Is it insulting? Well, in the sense that the Hollywood system and the writers' role in the pecking order there is insulting. *shrug*

You seriously think a Hollywood writer would say they were the least important person in the process? My experience is that they feel the least appreciated person.

 

[EJA]

I wish they'd kept the original scene of David pinning Kirk to the floor with a knife to his throat; would've been more interesting, and would've shown David as more of a strong character.

 

[EJA]

Ooohhh... yeah, the thing with Chekov seeing the baby is included in the novelization of Wrath of Khan. When I read it I was like "what...?" I mean the author didn't follow it up with anything at all other them them finding the baby then getting found by Khan & Co, and readers are left to assume that the baby was taken on board the Reliant and I guess killed when the ship was destroyed. Niiiiice.
Glad they cut it from the movie, it's sort of weird. That being said, a Son-of-Khan plot in later movies/series/books may have had potential.

An interesting idea, but sadly it wouldn't really work, as Khan would have taken any family of his with him on Reliant. I can't see him leaving anyone behind on Ceti Alpha V, least of all his own offspring.

 

[Balrog]

I'm glad they cut that scene. Thinking the Enterprise crew would have left toddlers behind, and then see a toddler next to the torpedo before it explodes, would have been simply disturbing.

 

[Timo]

And having the movie be disturbing is wrong because...?

Still, I kind of find it a bit on the extreme side that after spending 15 years on Ceti Alpha V, Khan's baby would be an infant? Would make more sense to have him be at least 10 or 12, no?

Perhaps 15? There's a certain family resemblance between Khan and Joachim...

I mean, why would it be "the baby"? Why not "the children"? Khan could have sired all of the young Aryans we saw in the movie, and kept on siring so that there'd be at least one toddler in the mix.

Perhaps the unseen portrait would have shown Khan, Marla and young Joachim?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

...that's a joke, right?

Nope. My Sydney-based Star Trek club heard the rumour and reported it during the making of the movie. We really weren't sure we believed it, but then Paul Winfield came to Sydney to make a movie called "On the Run"! I got to interview him about ST II - quite some time before the ST film was released - and asked him about the controversy and he confirmed it. And was stunned we'd dug up the rumour!

Perhaps the unseen portrait would have shown Khan, Marla and young Joachim?

Nope. I have it from Judson Scott himself that the portrait was of the child, and not his character.

However, Judson Scott and Ricardo Montalban had rehearsed their scenes (at Montalban's house) on the pretext that they were playing father and son. They got to the set and realised they were not related after all.

That could be true, but I doubt it -- the Extras Guild would have been taking work away from their members by granting Gene permission.

The costumes had already been made. Thus, when GR did put in his requests to fill them all, the SEG was unable to supply his quota for those dimensions on the two days specified, and so he was able to request male and female fan extras of certain (tall) heights and weights.

The only four much shorter females cast were Bjo Trimble, Susan Sackett, office secretary Michelle, and Leonard Nimoy's assistant, Louise Stange, who wore specially made small white jumpsuits.

And I did see references that the SEG changed their rules after TMP to protect their membership from losing future jobs.

I really would like a source on these claims as I've heard actors tell these things, but I've yet to see them substantiated.

"The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture" by Susan Sackett (Pocket 1980), also Susan Sackett's monthly "Starlog" column, and "On the Good Ship Enterprise" (Donning) by Bjo Trimble.

 

[Timo]

Nope. I have it from Judson Scott himself that the portrait was of the child, and not his character.

I was just musing from the in-universe point of view: any blonde infant in the painting could have been Joachim fifteen years ago. Similarly, no matter what the script or the director said, the characters as played could well be father and son.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Oceanborn_angel]

And having the movie be disturbing is wrong because...?

Still, I kind of find it a bit on the extreme side that after spending 15 years on Ceti Alpha V, Khan's baby would be an infant? Would make more sense to have him be at least 10 or 12, no?

Perhaps 15? There's a certain family resemblance between Khan and Joachim...

I mean, why would it be "the baby"? Why not "the children"? Khan could have sired all of the young Aryans we saw in the movie, and kept on siring so that there'd be at least one toddler in the mix.

Perhaps the unseen portrait would have shown Khan, Marla and young Joachim?

Timo Saloniemi

I'd always thought that it was understood that Joachim was Khan's son, of course for being a teenager he does look pretty old. Of course the inference could be made that he was not Giver's child but another woman's son by Khan and was one of the people in cryogenic sleep aboard the Botany Bay.

 

[trevanian]

Ooohhh... yeah, the thing with Chekov seeing the baby is included in the novelization of Wrath of Khan. When I read it I was like "what...?" I mean the author didn't follow it up with anything at all other them them finding the baby then getting found by Khan & Co, and readers are left to assume that the baby was taken on board the Reliant and I guess killed when the ship was destroyed. Niiiiice.
Glad they cut it from the movie, it's sort of weird. That being said, a Son-of-Khan plot in later movies/series/books may have had potential.

An interesting idea, but sadly it wouldn't really work, as Khan would have taken any family of his with him on Reliant. I can't see him leaving anyone behind on Ceti Alpha V, least of all his own offspring.

He DID take him along, that is RELIANT's Transporter room. Though how the kid stood up to all those phaser and torp hits, god only knows ...

 

[Maurice]

I really would like a source on these claims as I've heard actors tell these things, but I've yet to see them substantiated.

"The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture" by Susan Sackett (Pocket 1980), also Susan Sackett's monthly "Starlog" column, and "On the Good Ship Enterprise" (Donning) by Bjo Trimble.

Yes, but if I recall correctly, Sackett's accounts contradict the idea that Roddenberry got in trouble with the SEG over the use of fans. I was looking for evidence supporting the idea, which is what was claimed. I don't have access to the latter book, and I take everything from Bjo with a grain of salt because she wasn't actually involved in the production.

I have the Making of TMP book here, but I'm having a hard time finding any reference to the Rec Dec and extras, as the book has no index.

He DID take him along, that is RELIANT's Transporter room. Though how the kid stood up to all those phaser and torp hits, god only knows ...

The kid was invulnerable from harm because he doesn't appear in any scenes between Ceti Alpha and the Reliant transporter, ergo, he doesn't exist until the plot requires him!

 

[EJA]

It seems a bit unlikely to me that the child was Khan's. More probable it belonged to one of the other Augments, but Khan? Doubtful IMO.

 

[Maurice]

"Augments"? I assume this is a DS9 thing...as they were never referred to as such in TOS or TWOK.

 

[Grant]

Hey Therin..............

I will now sit down and eat a whole lot of crow. Where's the bar-b-q sauce?


http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20082156,00.html

 

[Bones2]

"Augments"? I assume this is a DS9 thing...as they were never referred to as such in TOS or TWOK.

Enterprise. Which tied in the Eugenics Wars to why Klingons look different in TOS. Personally, I think it was a stroke of genius.

 

[trevanian]

It seems a bit unlikely to me that the child was Khan's. More probable it belonged to one of the other Augments, but Khan? Doubtful IMO.

Since Khan is the only aged one, I figured this was sort of a lion's pride thing, where he killed all the other males and mated with all the females, so EVERYBODY was his offspring.

Either that or they are all the same age, but Khan decided to sleep outside each night, and the sand did the rest.

 

[Data Holmes]

"Augments"? I assume this is a DS9 thing...as they were never referred to as such in TOS or TWOK.

Enterprise. Which tied in the Eugenics Wars to why Klingons look different in TOS. Personally, I think it was a stroke of genius.

Or just a stroke...

It seems a bit unlikely to me that the child was Khan's. More probable it belonged to one of the other Augments, but Khan? Doubtful IMO.

Since Khan is the only aged one, I figured this was sort of a lion's pride thing, where he killed all the other males and mated with all the females, so EVERYBODY was his offspring.

Either that or they are all the same age, but Khan decided to sleep outside each night, and the sand did the rest.

Sure... and blame all of the guys deaths on the Ceti eels. The lion pride comparison is a good one.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'd always thought that it was understood that Joachim was Khan's son, of course for being a teenager he does look pretty old.

When the script was being put together, the character was no doubt intended to be Joaquin, the "right hand man" character played by Mark Tobin in "Space Seed".

When the decision was made to cast Aryan-looking young blonds as Khan's people, Joachim (Judson Scott) became a different character. The Greg Cox Khan novel, "To Reign in Hell", took the tack that Joachim is Joaquin's son, not Khan's. There is an explanation for why all the new Eugenic offspring are blond, too.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes, but if I recall correctly, Sackett's accounts contradict the idea that Roddenberry got in trouble with the SEG over the use of fans.

My understanding is that he didn't get into trouble, but the SEG simply moved to close the loophole he'd found in their regulations. The point was the SEG really couldn't fill the required number of pre-made costumes with the required number of correct-height/weight professional extras. Some of the fans used were already SEG members anyway.

I take everything from Bjo with a grain of salt because she wasn't actually involved in the production.

She set up Lincoln Enterprises for Gene and Majel, read the script for errors, supplied copies of the "ST Concordance" to the production and coordinated all the fan extras for their two days on the set. That's "involved in the production" enough for me.

I have the Making of TMP book here, but I'm having a hard time finding any reference to the Rec Dec and extras, as the book has no index.

You won't find a reference to GR getting into trouble from the SEG in that book because it's the official Paramount-approved account. The lawyers have already gone through its manuscript. To admit the production broke rules in print would be opening up the possibility of litigation or industrial action.