TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Agreed. At least we have plenty of filler material with this Joker though!
Obama as ''THE JOKER'' Controversy!!
- Thread starter miraclefan
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Agreed. At least we have plenty of filler material with this Joker though!
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
It's just that the majority or Americans don't believe government should be involved in our personal lives to such an extent. Easpecially those of us who don't rely on the government for our income and happiness.
Polls show that people want health care reform and people who have medicare LOVE it. What's the next claim that you're going to pull out of your butt?
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Polls clearly show that far more Americansc don't want government run health care than those that do. How's that for a claim? Of course you're always going to have those that want something for nothing (even though that's not possible).
First off...no one is proposing that the government "run" health care. So stop it.
Secondly...
So this is what it feels like to blow oneself up into a big balloon of self-rightousness only to be deflated by the smallest prick of a witty comment afterwards.
You always think it only happens to other people.
Edit: Sorry for derailing. I'll shut up now.
My point was simply that there is a fantastic amount of nonsense dominating the argument, crowding out more legitimate and interesting concerns.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
First off...no one is proposing that the government "run" health care. So stop it.
Secondly...
I just did.
A few thoughts...
I wonder of Arlen Specter will enjoy his mandatory "dying with dignity" counseling that would come with this package.
I wonder if the Obama kids would be covered under the same plan as would be dolled out to the rest of the folks?
I wonder if this program will have the same financial success as social security, medicare and medicaid?
What do you think?
But... but... but... the only way they can win the argument and to stop reform is by lying about it.
Because, see, our current system truly is broken, and the rest of the civilized world has found ways that produce better outcomes for less money. So if we are going to protect the profit$ of insurance companie$, the only way that can be accomplished is by lying to the American public and scaring them with Bad Words like "government takeover" and "death panels" and "rationed care".
Oh, and "Socialism" and "Nazi". Those words almost always work.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Sure, but it cuts to the core. Healthcare needs reform. No doubt. But we should not have it administrated by the government. It's not what this country is supposedly all about.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Actually it's "liberal facism" and "power grab". The American public understands them for exactly what they are.
1. Such counseling already exists. It just isn't covered a lot of the time so if you can't afford it out of your own pocket you're shit out of luck. And no. People aren't going to go to door to door asking how you want to die. Nor are they going to keep Alaskans with Downs syndrome from living. Mandatory abortions for handicapped feti won't take place and the infirm will be allowed to live for as long as their bodies will last.
2. Given how their parents are independently wealthy. No. Their parents can afford better coverage than most people. Blast! That's capitalism isn't it?
3. You mean all those very popular programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid? Probably. It's going to cost a lot to implement but in the end it'll wind up saving money. As long as people can stop acting like children who see a toy at Wal Mart and start demanding "MINE MINE MINE NOW NOW NOW!" then it'll work.
2. Given how their parents are independently wealthy. No. Their parents can afford better coverage than most people. Blast! That's capitalism isn't it?
3. You mean all those very popular programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid? Probably. It's going to cost a lot to implement but in the end it'll wind up saving money. As long as people can stop acting like children who see a toy at Wal Mart and start demanding "MINE MINE MINE NOW NOW NOW!" then it'll work.
So this is what it feels like to blow oneself up into a big balloon of self-rightousness only to be deflated by the smallest prick of a witty comment afterwards.
You always think it only happens to other people.
Edit: Sorry for derailing. I'll shut up now.
You didn't derail anything, and there's no need to shut up. I was just making a joke. I think you'll find if you read my earlier posts that I agree with you completely.
It's not "mandatory". And it's not "counseling". The proposal is to require that the costs of an end-of-life discussion (i.e., the cost of the doctor's time) is covered by your insurance, so that if you want to have that discussion, your insurance will pay for it. That's all. The rest is inflated lies and fear-mongering.
The proposals actually bring us a lot closer to what government officials currently get. I wonder how many of the senators and representatives who oppose health care reform would be willing to have the sort of insurance that most Americans have today - complete with restrictions for "pre-existing conditions" and for the insurance companies to deny treatment whenever they want to, merely to increase their own profits? Or would be willing to have no insurance at all, as nearly 50 million Americans do today?
Interesting that you stuck the word "financial" in there. Social security, medicare and medicaid all are incredibly successful and efficient programs. Solving their funding issues is a political problem, not an actual financial one.
Yes. That's why the vast majority of the American public wants health care reform, and most particularly, wants a public option for health insurance to be part of it. Because they know the words like "liberal facism" and "power grab" are just fear-mongering meaningless noise.
So, I guess we can add fascism to the list of fearmongering buzzwords TLS doesn't understand.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
1. Isn't mandatory now. It would be under the current proposal.
2. So you're saying that the coverage under the obama plan isn't as good as what's available now, huh?
3. Broke. Broke. ....and.....broke! This won't end well.
The thread looks as if it has rather drifted from the topic of the Joker "satire". But perhaps not - the intent of that "satire" was to tie Obama, in an unflattering way, not only to the Joker, but to the idea of socialism. And the health care reform proposals have been called "socialist" by the opponents of reform, so maybe it's really all the same subject.
I note that attempts to discuss ways to improve health care are met with accusations of "socialism" rather then with any serious discussion of why a proposal would or would not improve health care. The only criticism I've seen of the new proposals is that they are "socialist" - not that they won't improve health care. Oh sure, there's been been fear mongering about "death panels" and "rationed care" and other such invented nonsense. There's also been panic about when it might do to the insurance companies. But I mean there's been no actual discussion from opponents about whether the proposals will actually decrease costs and improve outcomes.
I think that's because the opponents of reform know that the proposals will indeed work. Similar ideas work everywhere else in the world they've been tried. In all other industrialized nations, people live longer, healthier lives, and their health cost per capita is much lower. So the reform proposals can't be criticized on their merits, which is why we're seeing the scare tactics and meaningless rhetoric.
But America isn't being fooled. Polls show vast majorities want reform, and they want a public insurance option. It's going to happen this time. America will finally join the rest of the civilized world.
I note that attempts to discuss ways to improve health care are met with accusations of "socialism" rather then with any serious discussion of why a proposal would or would not improve health care. The only criticism I've seen of the new proposals is that they are "socialist" - not that they won't improve health care. Oh sure, there's been been fear mongering about "death panels" and "rationed care" and other such invented nonsense. There's also been panic about when it might do to the insurance companies. But I mean there's been no actual discussion from opponents about whether the proposals will actually decrease costs and improve outcomes.
I think that's because the opponents of reform know that the proposals will indeed work. Similar ideas work everywhere else in the world they've been tried. In all other industrialized nations, people live longer, healthier lives, and their health cost per capita is much lower. So the reform proposals can't be criticized on their merits, which is why we're seeing the scare tactics and meaningless rhetoric.
But America isn't being fooled. Polls show vast majorities want reform, and they want a public insurance option. It's going to happen this time. America will finally join the rest of the civilized world.
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