The Two Romulan States
- Thread starter Karnbeln
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No, I'm not saying nobody knew Tal'aura assassinated the Senate. I'm saying there was nobody in power who could prevent her from taking over despite that, because there was nobody in power, period. The situation following Shinzon's death was one of total anarchy. This was not a multicameral legislature with authority divided between branches. The Senate and Praetor had absolute power, and both had ceased to exist. Shinzon had made himself an absolute dictator, so when he was gone, there was no state, no authority, no law.
I'm sure there were plenty of people who believed that Tal'aura had no legitimate claim to the throne -- indeed, that's the whole reason for Donatra's rebellion and secession -- but there was no surviving institution able to enforce that notion. This wasn't a case where you could have an election and the candidates' qualifications could be determined by the laws of the land as applied by the sitting judiciary. This was a time of total anarchy where power was up for grabs to whoever had the most military force and the most luck. Several groups jockeyed to fill the power vacuum, and Tal'aura won because she outfought and outschemed her opposition.
And I doubt this is the kind of situation where the Romulan masses would rise up in protest that the assassin of their Senate ended up running the whole government. In states like this, the common people just go about their lives pretty much the same way regardless of who's in power at the moment, because they're all pretty much equally dictatorial. Whatever upheavals and conflicts happen among the ruling elites are hardly more than academic to the downtrodden masses, because they're not enfranchised to begin with. It doesn't matter to them that Tal'aura sided with Shinzon, because Shinzon reigned for something like a week and didn't really have time to make much of an impact on the daily lives of the Romulan people. After all, he was busy going after some Starfleet guy and then haring off on some crazy mission to attack Earth. Well, that's all entertaining to hear about on the fifteen o'clock news, but what's it got to do with the price of vereza grain in the market? And violent coups are nothing new in Romulan history; many prior Praetors have no doubt come to power by assassination and military force, so there's no reason that the Romulans should consider Tal'aura any less qualified or legitimate than any of those others. It's just part of the game that the elites play with each other, and in the grand scheme of things it has little effect on the lives of the masses.
I'm sure there were plenty of people who believed that Tal'aura had no legitimate claim to the throne -- indeed, that's the whole reason for Donatra's rebellion and secession -- but there was no surviving institution able to enforce that notion. This wasn't a case where you could have an election and the candidates' qualifications could be determined by the laws of the land as applied by the sitting judiciary. This was a time of total anarchy where power was up for grabs to whoever had the most military force and the most luck. Several groups jockeyed to fill the power vacuum, and Tal'aura won because she outfought and outschemed her opposition.
And I doubt this is the kind of situation where the Romulan masses would rise up in protest that the assassin of their Senate ended up running the whole government. In states like this, the common people just go about their lives pretty much the same way regardless of who's in power at the moment, because they're all pretty much equally dictatorial. Whatever upheavals and conflicts happen among the ruling elites are hardly more than academic to the downtrodden masses, because they're not enfranchised to begin with. It doesn't matter to them that Tal'aura sided with Shinzon, because Shinzon reigned for something like a week and didn't really have time to make much of an impact on the daily lives of the Romulan people. After all, he was busy going after some Starfleet guy and then haring off on some crazy mission to attack Earth. Well, that's all entertaining to hear about on the fifteen o'clock news, but what's it got to do with the price of vereza grain in the market? And violent coups are nothing new in Romulan history; many prior Praetors have no doubt come to power by assassination and military force, so there's no reason that the Romulans should consider Tal'aura any less qualified or legitimate than any of those others. It's just part of the game that the elites play with each other, and in the grand scheme of things it has little effect on the lives of the masses.
For what it's worth, within the context of the established story, "A Singular Destiny" also explicitly reinforces what Christopher says: The common Romulan people are shown not to care too much which of the two nations they ended up in. Citizens of the IRS are carrying on more or less as before; the decisions of Donatra and her supporters have not been challenged. If the people can shrug off a regime change or political decision that results in their world actually leaving the Star Empire because its leaders have issues with a new Praetor, they probably care even less about smaller political struggles like who gets control of that Empire.
^Can a people really be so lethargic?
Just tragic....
Just tragic....
^Can a people really be so lethargic?
Just tragic....
Or just being pragmatic. A waiting game if you will.
^Can a people really be so lethargic?
Just tragic....
Well, as Christopher said, they don't really have too much of a stake in it. The common people just get on with day-to-day-life, and probably only get worked up if something drastic happens which directly affects them. The average Romulan probably cares about getting a good harvest, feeding the children, making enough of an income to keep the house intact, living honourably in accordance with the gods, etc. If you're a common farmer on Rator IX the squabbles of the nobles in the Senate back on Romulus probably aren't too interesting, unless for some reason a new government decides to implement something directly affecting Rator farming. Tal'aura, Donatra, what's the difference? Either way other people make all the big decisions, either way a fleet of warbirds is still there to protect them from Klingons, either way the crops need bringing in.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
^Can a people really be so lethargic?
Just tragic....
The vast majority of real world humans are "so letargic".
As for the romulans - I think even the common people care that they went from a superpower to weaklings in need of help, thanks to Shinzon&Tal'Aura. This could explain IRS's support from its populace.
^Can a people really be so lethargic?
Just tragic....
You really, really need to study your history. Lethargy has nothing to do with it. On the contrary, the reason the masses generally don't care much about the political games being played among the elites is because the masses are too busy farming or otherwise working to support their families, and don't have the time or luxury to be spectators to those games. Also because generally, when we're talking about a dictatorial or imperial kind of state like the Romulan Star Empire (or the Roman Empire or Chinese dynasties or what-have-you), the changes in power at the top don't have that much effect on the lives of the people down below, because the common folk are going to be just as disenfranchised and powerless no matter which group of nobles or royals or other elites manages to seize power from their rival elites. If the rebels seeking to overthrow the king are going to tax and exploit the peasants just as much as the sitting king does, why should the peasants root for either side? No, they just try to keep their heads down and stay out of the way. They go on with their farming and smithing and cobbling and weaving and so forth, try to keep themselves and their children fed, and hope that the nonsense at the top doesn't trickle far enough down to inconvenience them any more than normal.
^Romulus is not the entire Romulan Empire, just its capital. If the United States lost Washington DC, New York, and the vicinity, we'd be badly crippled, but it probably wouldn't be the end of the nation. We'd relocate the capital and rebuild. Heck, the Roman Empire did lose its capital and the entire western half of it collapsed, but it already had a secondary power base in Byzantium, and the Eastern Roman Empire (or the Byzantine Empire as we often call it) endured for another thousand years after the fall of Rome.
I know, I know...I understand all that, Chris. That doesn't mean I have to like it....
Call me an idealist, but...it seems to me that an uninformed public...is the easiest kind of people...to conquer and oppress.
I'll bet on it. Let's hope Donatra remains the "good guy", and doesn't get caught up in her absolute power....
Well, related to this, and what I think it implies, there's no real evidence Tal'aura is the "bad guy". Sure, she's power hungry, having grabbed the Praetorship, but Donatra has essentially done the same thing. They're both dictators. Donatra may be more friendly to the Federation, and seem a more likable or sympathetic individual, but there's no evidence Tal'aura treats the people of the Empire any worse than the usual Romulan leader. Sure, there was unrest in "Death in Winter", but that's because the charismatic Braeg was doing his best to whip the populace up and overthrow a leader he objected to. Tal'aura might actually be quite popular now- she's solved the food crisis caused by (from the RSE viewpoint) that traitor Donatra, who stole from the Empire and left the people to starve, and she's done it without making the RSE dependent on the Federation (the Typhon Pact is the answer instead). She may have made mistakes by helping Shinzon, but she's fixing them quite nicely, and managed to unite every faction save Donatra's. There's no evidence she's like Dralath and is doing anything to cause the people to feel persecuted or more oppressed than before. Donatra may appear more motivated by the good of the Romulan people, but we can't forget her solution was also "I become an empress"
. Tal'aura is an antagonist in these stories, Donatra more of a protagonist, but we can't say Donatra is the "good guy" and Tal'aura the bad guy.
Well, it's true that realpolitik can never truly be reduced to white hats and black hats. But Tal'aura pretty much directly assassinated every last one of her own colleagues in the Senate, whereas Donatra rebelled against Shinzon when she realized his intent was to commit genocide against Earth, arguing to her colleagues that such an act would be a stain on their honor. Think about that. Tal'aura murdered people she knew personally and worked alongside every day, while Donatra was willing to risk her own life to protect strangers from an enemy nation. So I'd say there's very good reason to expect that Donatra's approach to governance would be more ethical and less ruthless than Tal'aura's.
I don't think Donatra seized power for the sake of personal ambition like Tal'aura did. I think she did it because she felt it was necessary for the good of her people.
I don't think Donatra seized power for the sake of personal ambition like Tal'aura did. I think she did it because she felt it was necessary for the good of her people.
Those are very good points. I will indeed think about them.
I actually agree, but I still feel a little wary of anyone whose service to their people includes the plan "I end up in charge".
Before anyone asks, yes that includes democratic leaders, and yes obviously my prejudice is a bit illogical, but as well-meaning as Donatra appears to be, it's always in the back of my mind that she split an interstellar nation in two and crowned herself an empress. Obviously, given that she's a product of a different culture/political system it's not really fair to compare her to, say, Bacco, and I do think she is motivated by concern for the Romulan people above all else, but...
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Donatra's the good guy cuz she's HOT!
No Breg was trying to overthrow a leader who was having trouble dealing with unrest on other Romulan worlds like the one Picard and Crusher were on which made Tal'aura look incompetent, becuase if you can't deal with upset subjects and insurgents how can you deal with the empires real enemies. Not to mention that after the whole Braeg was resolved it was found that the Romulans might have had a pandemic on their hands which to cure could have cost them an entire planet.
Which Tal'aura failed to prevent even though she KNEW about it in advance which if it ever got out would cause massive reputation damage.
Unless of course the Pact falls apart, because if that happens the citizens of Romulus are more likely to send Donatra the gift of Tal'aura's severed head on a platter.
Yes, that was a major reason why he objected to her. Both our comments are correct.
Those are good points, but I simply said she "might actually be quite popular now", not would necessarily remain so if her solutions fall apart or other hypothetical complications make things even worse. I think we all agree she's in a quite shaky position, I was just saying the people might not necessarily have too much of a problem with her at present.
I also suspect that last scenario is somewhere in Donatra's mind...
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The romulans seem to follow loosely - terminologically and historically - the roman empire.
If the pattern holds, then the Romulan Empire will soon fall (perhaps, when Romulus' sun explode) and the IRS will prosper for the forseeable future.
What that would mean for the Typhon Pact is unclear.
If the pattern holds, then the Romulan Empire will soon fall (perhaps, when Romulus' sun explode) and the IRS will prosper for the forseeable future.
What that would mean for the Typhon Pact is unclear.
No argument at all, never claimed otherwise. But if the entire capital area were to be destroyed, and there had been a SECOND faction fighting for control before the destruction, pretty good chance that they'd have a leg up, especially if they were to move in quickly to help after the destruction. Might not settle down right away, as remnants might fight for power, but the larger, organized power that was making a claim for control before the disaster would probably emerge on top...
That's all I was saying, that the base of the Romulan Empire wasn't long for this universe, so you only have to worry about them in the short term...
^Just because the RSE is weakened doesn't mean it's an absolute fact that they'll cease to exist. It's a reasonable possibility, perhaps even a likely outcome, but likely does not mean certain. You never know what might happen. Heck, for much of Destiny, it seemed inevitable that the Federation would cease to exist, but it didn't.
Besides, there are still six unchronicled years between A Singular Destiny and the destruction of Romulus. A lot can change in six years. Just six years earlier, in 2375, the Romulans were united, the Dominion and its Cardassian and Breen allies were trouncing the Federation, and Gowron was running the Klingon Empire into the ground. The relationships and very existence of multiple major states have transformed immensely in that interval. So it would be unwise to make any assumptions about the politics of 2387 based on the way things stand in 2381.
Besides, there are still six unchronicled years between A Singular Destiny and the destruction of Romulus. A lot can change in six years. Just six years earlier, in 2375, the Romulans were united, the Dominion and its Cardassian and Breen allies were trouncing the Federation, and Gowron was running the Klingon Empire into the ground. The relationships and very existence of multiple major states have transformed immensely in that interval. So it would be unwise to make any assumptions about the politics of 2387 based on the way things stand in 2381.
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