Ouch, My Prime Universe! (Spoilers!)

[tfarr]

Ok, so it's my understanding that when Nero and Spock Prime went through the black hole (apparently in the year 2387) they didn't just go back in time. They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin. So all arguments about continuity violations, whether they took place prior to the incursion into the time line (the destruction of the Kelvin) or after are all moot.

I've seen a lot of people spouting that "if you don't like this movie, just chill out because the Prime universe is still, there exactly as it was." But that's not really true is it? Romulus, has been destroyed in the Prime universe. One of the most long term "villain" species, is now nearly extinct.

This bothers me. Am I alone on this one?

Jolan tru Romulans. Jolan tru.

 

[Amaris]

Oh, I love the Romulans, and I know a certain Administrator here who seems to like them a little bit, and like her, I was saddened to hear that in the prime universe, Romulus is a dust cloud. Of course, who knows? It's entirely possible this is a TSFS moment. I don't know, but I'm curious to find out.

J.

 

[superdeluxe]

Ok, so it's my understanding that when Nero and Spock Prime went through the black hole (apparently in the year 2387) they didn't just go back in time. They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin. So all arguments about continuity violations, whether they took place prior to the incursion into the time line (the destruction of the Kelvin) or after are all moot.

I've seen a lot of people spouting that "if you don't like this movie, just chill out because the Prime universe is still, there exactly as it was." But that's not really true is it? Romulus, has been destroyed in the Prime universe. One of the most long term "villain" species, is now nearly extinct.

This bothers me. Am I alone on this one?

Jolan tru Romulans. Jolan tru.

It is very possible that there might have been several colony planets, and a new home world was found.

 

[Michael]

They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin.

What was already different?

One of the most long term "villain" species, is now nearly extinct.

This bothers me. Am I alone on this one?

You are certainly not alone on this, but personally I don't have a problem with this. Actually that makes the Romulan species even more interesting.

 

[Sci]

I've seen a lot of people spouting that "if you don't like this movie, just chill out because the Prime universe is still, there exactly as it was." But that's not really true is it? Romulus, has been destroyed in the Prime universe. One of the most long term "villain" species, is now nearly extinct.

Not necessarily. The Romulans are, after all, the rulers of a vast interstellar empire -- one so large that only the Federation and Klingon Empire are larger. There are presumably millions, if not billions, of Romulans throughout interstellar space.

Further, if you accept the novels -- which, BTW, the writers of the new films are fans of many of the novels, and took many details such as Kirk's parents' names, and Uhura's first name, from the novels -- then the Romulan Star Empire is currently (as of 2381) split in two, with the post-Shinzon Praetor, Tal'Aura, facing off against Donatra, who has half the Romulan military on her side and controls half of Romulan space. Donatra declared her space independent of the Star Empire, proclaiming the existence of the Imperial Romulan State, with herself as its Empress and a world called Archernar as its capital.

So the Romulans are hardly done for in the Prime universe, especially if you go by the novels.

 

[Claudia]

No, my understanding was that the universe "changed" when Nero (and Spock) went back - it changed with Nero's attack on the Kelvin.

So, if we follow the "Parallels"-theory, that one event created a whole new parallel universe. But before that event, there was only the "old, established" universe.

 

[Michael]

No, my understanding was that the universe "changed" when Nero (and Spock) went back - it changed with Nero's attack on the Kelvin.

So, if we follow the "Parallels"-theory, that one event created a whole new parallel universe. But before that event, there was only the "old, established" universe.

All of this is correct.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Who cares about the prime universe?

That's what reruns are for.


All the new stuff will be in this universe.

 

[Alrik]

Keep in mind that Romulus is very much in tact in this timeline and due to the foreknowledge of its demise, could be saved when the time comes.

 

[tfarr]

They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin.

What was already different?

Well anything could be different. One example that I would give is that design of the Kelvin's bridge and the style of the uniforms of it's crew were not the same as they would have been in the Prime universe in 2233. We see the "new" style appearance to things before Nero destroys the Kelvin.

 

[The]

They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin.

What was already different?

Well anything could be different. One example that I would give is that design of the Kelvin's bridge and the style of the uniforms of it's crew were not the same as they would have been in the Prime universe in 2233. We see the "new" style appearance to things before Nero destroys the Kelvin.

How do you know? I don't remember it being shown one way or another in the TOS before...

 

[tfarr]

Keep in mind that Romulus is very much in tact in this timeline and due to the foreknowledge of its demise, could be saved when the time comes.

Well that's all well and good if you enjoy this new time line. For those of us who don't, it kind of blows that Romulus is gone in the Prime universe.

But, as one person replied... it was a big Empire that was fractured and had other worlds colonized. So that's entertaining. I still don't like that their home world is gone... but whatever.

 

[Sci]

One example that I would give is that design of the Kelvin's bridge and the style of the uniforms of it's crew were not the same as they would have been in the Prime universe in 2233.

And you say that on the basis of what evidence, exactly?

Sure, the uniform design we saw in 2233 was different than the Starfleet uniform of 2254 and the United Earth Starfleet uniform of 2161, but what of it? Who's to say how such things would evolve?

 

[tfarr]

What was already different?

Well anything could be different. One example that I would give is that design of the Kelvin's bridge and the style of the uniforms of it's crew were not the same as they would have been in the Prime universe in 2233. We see the "new" style appearance to things before Nero destroys the Kelvin.

How do you know? I don't remember it being shown one way or another in the TOS before...

Because it's logical to assume that technological development wouldn't have gone backwards.

If you see someone with a clunky VCR and tiny little CRT television in the year 1987, is it not logical to assume that if you saw someone's living room in 1963 that you wouldn't see a HDTV flat panel hanging on the wall with a BluRay player connected?

I'm exaggerating, of course... as far as the functionality of their technology goes it's all relatively the same. But the look of it is so much sleeker and stylish. And of course I realize this was done because you can't show 60's TV budget sets on the big screen in 2009. But you asked for an example of something that was different, so I gave one.

 

[The Wormhole]

They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin.

What was already different?

Kirk seems to no longer have an older brother. George and the wife talk about Jim as though he is their firstborn, and the the role of Sam Kirk was written out of the movie anyway. Given Jim was born at the moment of Nero's attack, the absence of Sam had to have happened before Nero's arrival.

 

[Skywalker]

Eh, the Romulans were refugees from another world anyway. The Vulcans losing Vulcan is a much bigger blow.

 

[cultcross]

One example that I would give is that design of the Kelvin's bridge and the style of the uniforms of it's crew were not the same as they would have been in the Prime universe in 2233.

And you say that on the basis of what evidence, exactly?

Sure, the uniform design we saw in 2233 was different than the Starfleet uniform of 2254 and the United Earth Starfleet uniform of 2161, but what of it? Who's to say how such things would evolve?

And to say that the Kelvin uniforms couldn't have evolved out of designs like this one is a fairly... bold statement.

 

[tfarr]

Eh, the Romulans were refugees from another world anyway. The Vulcans losing Vulcan is a much bigger blow.

Yeah, but the Vulcan's losing Vulcan happens in this alternate reality / parallel universe. When fans gripe about it, the defense is "Vulcan is still there in the Prime universe." And that defense is correct. But Romulus isn't. Sure that's not as substantial. But it still makes me a sad panda to think this pile of a movie could change anything in the universe that I love.

 

[cultcross]

Eh, the Romulans were refugees from another world anyway. The Vulcans losing Vulcan is a much bigger blow.

Yeah, but the Vulcan's losing Vulcan happens in this alternate reality / parallel universe. When fans gripe about it, the defense is "Vulcan is still there in the Prime universe." And that defense is correct. But Romulus isn't. Sure that's not as substantial. But it still makes me a sad panda to think this pile of a movie could change anything in the universe that I love.

So basically the gripe is that something finally happened, not even on screen, in the prime universe that wasn't reset-buttoned back to status quo? Something, I might add, to a planet we've actually seen maybe 5 times.

 

[Klaitu]

Ok, so it's my understanding that when Nero and Spock Prime went through the black hole (apparently in the year 2387) they didn't just go back in time. They went to a parallel universe / alternate reality. Things were different in this universe before they messed with the timeline by encountering the Kelvin. So all arguments about continuity violations, whether they took place prior to the incursion into the time line (the destruction of the Kelvin) or after are all moot.

I've seen a lot of people spouting that "if you don't like this movie, just chill out because the Prime universe is still, there exactly as it was." But that's not really true is it? Romulus, has been destroyed in the Prime universe. One of the most long term "villain" species, is now nearly extinct.

This bothers me. Am I alone on this one?

Jolan tru Romulans. Jolan tru.

Spock is looking quite old in the latest Star Trek incarnation. Vulcans live for hundreds of years. The destruction of romulus may take place hundreds of years after Nemesis.