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Star Trek Fundamentalism

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Are you one of the zealots? It would be useful to frame the interaction between us because my own position is clear....

Implying the same thing again? Anybody who disagrees with you is a zealot? If you read my posts, I have stated I only recently started watching the old shows and that I was looking forward to the movie. Don't let that stop your quest to smite trekkie "fundamentalists" or "zealots".

Keep smearing away. (It's a good method of debating. The fact that the majority of the people in this thread disagree with you is a sign that it is completely effective)

...Like I give a shit because you think I've backtracked. How big is your ego?
How big is my ego? It pales into insignificance when compared to yours.

Coming from guy who created a thread claiming he was "saying what needed to be said" as if nobody had ever heard it before. Like some sort of rebel defying conformity. Sorry friend, you are not some of free thinker pushing the boundaries and bringing anything new to the table. You some random guy engaging in a bit of nerd rage by smearing anybody who disagrees with you or his delivery as a zealot, fundamentalist, trekmujahadeen, etc. While simultaneously claiming you are completely right about everything.

This will be my last post to you. I can't be bothered to talk to trolls. Get in your last word and claim victory to satisfy that gigantic ego that you have.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hey Moderator, you took me to task for calling this obvious guy a douchebag while you let him swear and call people "Zealot", "Fundamentalist", "Trekmujhadeen", etc.

Thanks for being even handed in the matter.
 
A split in fandom is upon us it seems to me.

1) There are those who, no matter what, will denounce this film as divisive, destructive and evil. They agitate, they snipe, they cry rape.

I despise them, they sicken me, they killed Trek.
A purely subjective observation. You dislike people who denounce this film. It's an odd way to judge character.

2) There are those who welcome a new beginning and a chance to what a fresh perspective will bring to the franchise. They are what Trek is about, they are open minded and willing to give it a chance.

I love these guys, they are Trek.
Well, at least you're consistent. Would a fresh perspective include, for example, a Star Trek sitcom?

The irony inherent in the juxtapostion of my own position is obvious but I'll press on anyway.

Those whom I despise have had this coming for years and I'm laughing my socks off at them - they like to tell us what Trek is, they like to tell us that Voyager was worth watching week in and week out, they like to keep Trek as a dirty little secret moulded in their own image, increasingly inward looking and obsessed with it's own belly button rather than scanning the horizon and seeking out new life and new civilisations. A few thousand zealots ruined a casual audiences enjoyment of Trek and it all it could have been, the casual audience watched it because it was good and not inward looking and not concerned about something that might have happened in an episode 20 years previously. The zealots did this to Trek, they were responsible for it's decline and death. These cretins forgot Trek is a business too and that it needs Joe Public to watch it as well, they disenfranchised the millions who kept it going by watching it and bringing in the advertising revenue and sales of the product around the globe.
I disagree with you about what the "zealots" liked. I think they hated Voyager and Enterprise. Most of the episodes substituted a particle-of-the-week approach for vision. The science fiction in either series was light and unimaginative, and the dialog was flat. But they did have beautiful visual effects and just enough good episodes (about one in eight for Voyager and one in five for Enterprise in my opinion), that I tuned into the show each week. When the shows did dive into Trek "canon" for story ideas, the result was frequently disappointing. Consider the Voyager episode "Flashback" which supposedly tied into the movie Undiscovered Country. The events in the episode killed a character who was later (by story chronology) seen at the end of the movie. That's exactly the sort of bad storytelling that sets "zealots" off with their obsession for detail. Then there were irregularities with the presentation of the Romulans, Ferengi, and Borg in Enterprise. And instead of giving the "zealots" the Romulan War stories they wanted, the third season of Enterprise gave us the Xindi War.

And do you know what really pisses the Zealot's off?

The studio is not listening to them any more, no more letter writing campaigns that are noted, no more 'leaks' from the cast over plot details not to their liking and no more making a film for a few lonely people hiding in their cellars.

I love that, I can't tell you how amusing I find this.
Right! Wait ... huh? There are no leaks? There were constant leaks up through the end of Enterprise, and we sure know a lot about the single movie produced since even though it hasn't aired. And when was the last letter-writing campaign successful? The one to save Enterprise actually raised money and it didn't go anywhere. Voyager, regretfully, didn't need one. Nor did DS9 or TNG. And before that? Maybe the one that gave TOS its second season, although I've read that even that campaign is in doubt.

And which film was made for lonely people hiding in their cellars? Nemesis introduced a major new alien race from out of nowhere that apparently had been living in plain sight within the Romulan Empire ... instead of giving us Romulans, we got Nosferatu. And a clone of Picard that didn't look like Picard. Oh, and who can forget bald cadet Tom Hardy even though we know from Trek "canon" that Picard had hair in those years? Insurrection -- well, I won't say anything bad about that film, because it's my favorite of the TNG films -- but it was a quaint, local story even though DS9 was in the middle of their Dominion War arc and it would have been more consistent to see the role the Enterprise played in that, so I don't think anyone was listening to the zealots then. First Contact? The movie with, according to canon, a Zephram Cochrane played by too old an actor and an Earth that was in no position to support an on-going space program? The movie with the dumbest use of time travel since ... er ... Generations, and that ripped the novelty of the Borg to shreds by introducing us to the hideous notion of a Borg "queen". Nope, I don't see much fan influence there. Maybe the zealots ruined Generations? The film that killed Kirk. Yeah, the fans were behind that one alright. Let me cut to the chase ... I have yet to see a Trek movie that followed Trek canon faithfully, even my absolute favorite The Motion Picture which introduced radically changed Klingons that took over two decades to "resolve" in a half-assed Enterprise episode.

Trek died and what lived on, in the form of characters we love, is what will be imagined up on the screen in May. We might love it,we might hate it but it had to happen and it had to be done to show once and for all that geriatric actors running around in wigs and corsets on shaky sets is not what Trek is or should be, that idiot aliens with the de rigour bumpy foreheads frying eggs in the mess while in the 'Delta Quadrant' is not really entertainment.
Trek didn't "die." As I pointed out elsewhere, this upcoming film was being negotiated less than a year after the cancelation of Enterprise. And it appears Paramount was the party that started those negotiations. Star Trek is an enduring idea about an optimistic future that isn't ever going to die. By the way, this notion of Trek dying is about as rhetorically sound as saying someone has raped their childhood. It's a ridiculous statement that should be laughed at and rebuked with a condescending reminder to "just drink your drink."

Trek may die [:rolleyes:]in May but what it takes with it once and for all is the idiots, the zealots and fundamentalists who contributed to it's demise.
You've failed to demonstrate this point of yours that the "zealots" killed [:rolleyes:]Star Trek. I point the finger at generally bad storytelling.
Fuck them and fuck what they did. JJ's vision of Trek is down to them if you think it through, they are to blame for all of this one way or the other actually.
Huh? JJ had an idea of what he'd like to see in Trek. I doubt any zealots backed him into a corner.

If a big budget film with a big production value cannot reinvigorate the franchise then I am happy to consign Trek to posterity and reflect, at leisure, on the bits I loved while ignoring what I hated as well as those who killed a friend [:rolleyes:] while protesting 'we told you so'.
What if it's a big budget film with big production values, but a lousy story? I'm not saying Abrams' film has a lousy script, but the history of cinema is filled with examples of well-funded, well-shot garbage. Sometimes all the glitz is enough to convince an audience to spend enough to make a film profitable, but usually studios aren't that lucky.

You screwed it up with your love of registry numbers, canon violations, lack of imagination and self important demographic that reduced Trek to a soap opera set in outer space.

You only have yourselves to blame - have the guts to identify yourselves and justify your ignorance.
So a good franchise can't be internally consistant? It can't progress logically from previously shown episodes? Take a look at Heroes, sometime. There's a show with huge potential, yet the writers keep making mistakes, ignoring details they've set previously and changing character motivations. The show's a mess and sinking in the ratings because the audience is bright enough to give up and go elsewhere for entertainment that makes more sense.

I dare you.
Sit down and drink yer drink, laddie.
 
A split in fandom is upon us it seems to me.

1) There are those who, no matter what, will denounce this film as divisive, destructive and evil. They agitate, they snipe, they cry rape.

I despise them, they sicken me, they killed Trek.
A purely subjective observation. You dislike people who denounce this film. It's an odd way to judge character.

2) There are those who welcome a new beginning and a chance to what a fresh perspective will bring to the franchise. They are what Trek is about, they are open minded and willing to give it a chance.

I love these guys, they are Trek.
Well, at least you're consistent. Would a fresh perspective include, for example, a Star Trek sitcom?

I disagree with you about what the "zealots" liked. I think they hated Voyager and Enterprise. Most of the episodes substituted a particle-of-the-week approach for vision. The science fiction in either series was light and unimaginative, and the dialog was flat. But they did have beautiful visual effects and just enough good episodes (about one in eight for Voyager and one in five for Enterprise in my opinion), that I tuned into the show each week. When the shows did dive into Trek "canon" for story ideas, the result was frequently disappointing. Consider the Voyager episode "Flashback" which supposedly tied into the movie Undiscovered Country. The events in the episode killed a character who was later (by story chronology) seen at the end of the movie. That's exactly the sort of bad storytelling that sets "zealots" off with their obsession for detail. Then there were irregularities with the presentation of the Romulans, Ferengi, and Borg in Enterprise. And instead of giving the "zealots" the Romulan War stories they wanted, the third season of Enterprise gave us the Xindi War.

Right! Wait ... huh? There are no leaks? There were constant leaks up through the end of Enterprise, and we sure know a lot about the single movie produced since even though it hasn't aired. And when was the last letter-writing campaign successful? The one to save Enterprise actually raised money and it didn't go anywhere. Voyager, regretfully, didn't need one. Nor did DS9 or TNG. And before that? Maybe the one that gave TOS its second season, although I've read that even that campaign is in doubt.

And which film was made for lonely people hiding in their cellars? Nemesis introduced a major new alien race from out of nowhere that apparently had been living in plain sight within the Romulan Empire ... instead of giving us Romulans, we got Nosferatu. And a clone of Picard that didn't look like Picard. Oh, and who can forget bald cadet Tom Hardy even though we know from Trek "canon" that Picard had hair in those years? Insurrection -- well, I won't say anything bad about that film, because it's my favorite of the TNG films -- but it was a quaint, local story even though DS9 was in the middle of their Dominion War arc and it would have been more consistent to see the role the Enterprise played in that, so I don't think anyone was listening to the zealots then. First Contact? The movie with, according to canon, a Zephram Cochrane played by too old an actor and an Earth that was in no position to support an on-going space program? The movie with the dumbest use of time travel since ... er ... Generations, and that ripped the novelty of the Borg to shreds by introducing us to the hideous notion of a Borg "queen". Nope, I don't see much fan influence there. Maybe the zealots ruined Generations? The film that killed Kirk. Yeah, the fans were behind that one alright. Let me cut to the chase ... I have yet to see a Trek movie that followed Trek canon faithfully, even my absolute favorite The Motion Picture which introduced radically changed Klingons that took over two decades to "resolve" in a half-assed Enterprise episode.

Trek didn't "die." As I pointed out elsewhere, this upcoming film was being negotiated less than a year after the cancelation of Enterprise. And it appears Paramount was the party that started those negotiations. Star Trek is an enduring idea about an optimistic future that isn't ever going to die. By the way, this notion of Trek dying is about as rhetorically sound as saying someone has raped their childhood. It's a ridiculous statement that should be laughed at and rebuked with a condescending reminder to "just drink your drink."

You've failed to demonstrate this point of yours that the "zealots" killed [:rolleyes:]Star Trek. I point the finger at generally bad storytelling.
Huh? JJ had an idea of what he'd like to see in Trek. I doubt any zealots backed him into a corner.

What if it's a big budget film with big production values, but a lousy story? I'm not saying Abrams' film has a lousy script, but the history of cinema is filled with examples of well-funded, well-shot garbage. Sometimes all the glitz is enough to convince an audience to spend enough to make a film profitable, but usually studios aren't that lucky.

You screwed it up with your love of registry numbers, canon violations, lack of imagination and self important demographic that reduced Trek to a soap opera set in outer space.

You only have yourselves to blame - have the guts to identify yourselves and justify your ignorance.
So a good franchise can't be internally consistant? It can't progress logically from previously shown episodes? Take a look at Heroes, sometime. There's a show with huge potential, yet the writers keep making mistakes, ignoring details they've set previously and changing character motivations. The show's a mess and sinking in the ratings because the audience is bright enough to give up and go elsewhere for entertainment that makes more sense.

I dare you.
Sit down and drink yer drink, laddie.

This is better - at least you tried to make some points unlike the previous poster who falls into the zealots trap of attacking the poster rather than the point.

You sir are a Trekker I submit - old skool - but still a Trekker.

Hat off to you. :techman:
 
Are you one of the zealots? It would be useful to frame the interaction between us because my own position is clear....

Implying the same thing again? Anybody who disagrees with you is a zealot? If you read my posts, I have stated I only recently started watching the old shows and that I was looking forward to the movie. Don't let that stop your quest to smite trekkie "fundamentalists" or "zealots".

Keep smearing away. (It's a good method of debating. The fact that the majority of the people in this thread disagree with you is a sign that it is completely effective)

...Like I give a shit because you think I've backtracked. How big is your ego?
How big is my ego? It pales into insignificance when compared to yours.

Coming from guy who created a thread claiming he was "saying what needed to be said" as if nobody had ever heard it before. Like some sort of rebel defying conformity. Sorry friend, you are not some of free thinker pushing the boundaries and bringing anything new to the table. You some random guy engaging in a bit of nerd rage by smearing anybody who disagrees with you or his delivery as a zealot, fundamentalist, trekmujahadeen, etc. While simultaneously claiming you are completely right about everything.

This will be my last post to you. I can't be bothered to talk to trolls. Get in your last word and claim victory to satisfy that gigantic ego that you have.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hey Moderator, you took me to task for calling this obvious guy a douchebag while you let him swear and call people "Zealot", "Fundamentalist", "Trekmujhadeen", etc.

Thanks for being even handed in the matter.

Can anyone tell me which bit of this post deals with the topic rather than me? Love your sig too.

:guffaw:
 
^ Heh, I deleted my post as I felt like I might be banging my head against the wall :lol:

That said - I'll put it back up for context...

me said:
Plumster

You trample over your own points by being a dick about it, you know.

Even if we do agree with you (and I do, in parts), your manner isn't winning you many friends. Its a fine line to tread between making an abrupt point and being a dick. Lots of us tread that line around here, but people rarely go over it.

You can't just keep beating us over the head with "zealots" if we disagree with you.

:D
 
^ Heh, I deleted my post as I felt like I might be banging my head against the wall :lol:

That said - I'll put it back up for context...

me said:
Plumster

You trample over your own points by being a dick about it, you know.

Even if we do agree with you (and I do, in parts), your manner isn't winning you many friends. Its a fine line to tread between making an abrupt point and being a dick. Lots of us tread that line around here, but people rarely go over it.

You can't just keep beating us over the head with "zealots" if we disagree with you.

:D

Not interested in winning friends so I don't care for the assertion frankly however let me be clear what my OPINION is as some people seem incapable of reading the thread from beginning to end with a smile on their face. :rolleyes:

My position can be summarised as the following;

1) Fandom WILL split because of this film and that split is likely to be different than at any time before.

2) There are zealots out there who will not discuss anything other than their version of Trek. The same zealots who won't give this film a chance because not one of us can say today it will be crap or it will be good.

3) Their wet dream of Trek died because it was crap in the end.

4) I think the zealots killed Trek by making it a niche product - it became a nerdfest.

5) Trek starts again this year with year 1 of Star Trek. :devil:

6) The zealots are spewing because the studio is doing their own thing this time.

7) Canon sucks.

8) Zealots suck and are not what Trek is about.

All these things have been OPINED by me - this was followed by general agreement of some of my points with some constructive criticism and a lot of name calling by those who attack the man rather than the position.

My position is clear, my opinion is clear, my conclusion is clear.
 
The topic is about fandom and it's arguable split over this movie.

The people I've alluded to are an unfortunate demographic many of us have had to endure over the years.

They've had their time, time to shut up and let someone else have a go at Trek I say. ;)
 
^ Which is a fair point.

Problem is, you are preaching to the choir here. For the most part anyway. There are many differing opinions. 42 years is a long time. There are 5 series, 10 films, comics, books. Different groups of fans. It isn't - it just isn't, black and white. Yes or No. People like to come to a conclusion on their own. As stated, a lot of your opinions are valid.

No need to ram it down our throats. I can practically hear you cackling as you type.

A lot of us have been in the "Trek XI" forum a while. There aren't too many "zealots" round any more. Don't be suprised if people get their noses put out of joint.

Nobody likes being told what to do or how to think.
 
^ Which is a fair point.

Problem is, you are preaching to the choir here. For the most part anyway. There are many differing opinions, it isn't - it just isn't, black and white. People like to come to a conclusion on their owns. As stated, a lot of your opinions are valid.

No need to ram it down our throats. I can practically hear you cackling as you type.

A lot of us have been in the "Trek XI" forum a while. There aren't too many "zealots" round any more. Don't be suprised if people get their noses put out of joint. Nobody likes being told what to do.

I don't care what anyone thinks though, it's my opinion only. Funny thing though is that there is a fair amount of agreement with it.

There are people here trying to discredit me rather than my opinion and that is all the evidence I need.

Back at you baby...!!
 
^ Now, that makes no sense whatsoever.

If you don't care what people think why are you even here? To put our backs up?

I thought the point of a debate was to try and convince someone of your argument.

At the moment, you argument is that you are right, and nobody else can have an opinion - is that right?
 
^ Now, that makes no sense whatsoever.

If you don't care what people think why are you even here? To put our backs up?

I thought the point of a debate was to try and convince someone of your argument.

At the moment, you argument is that you are right, and nobody else can have an opinion - is that right?

No it is not - you are focusing on me rather than the point. You don't know me, you will never meet me or enjoy my gregarious and generous nature so all you have is the words I write and the points I make, we will never make love in front of an open fire or rub ice cubes on our more sensitive parts as we vow each other to thee. Ergo I care not what you think of me.

Debate the points.

Would you agree that a debate is a 2 way street?

Shall we frame the discussion with that principle?

Or shall we allow the thread to be hi-jacked by the zealots so it get's locked and the debate is won by them on the basis of their crass and crude version of Trek?

Hahahahahahahahahaha...!!!
 
I think I'll just type the "what the fuck" smiley and leave it at that.

:wtf:

The rules for flaming say:

You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion.

And given I was not attacking any ONE person but merely identifying a group in my OP without referring to any ONE person in that OP - I believe that I have the moral high ground.

In fact - the zealots rather identified themselves.

All hail to the new Trek - better then the old Trek.

Three cheers for JJ...

Hip hip....
 
Are you one of the zealots? It would be useful to frame the interaction between us because my own position is clear....

Implying the same thing again? Anybody who disagrees with you is a zealot? If you read my posts, I have stated I only recently started watching the old shows and that I was looking forward to the movie. Don't let that stop your quest to smite trekkie "fundamentalists" or "zealots".

Keep smearing away. (It's a good method of debating. The fact that the majority of the people in this thread disagree with you is a sign that it is completely effective)

...Like I give a shit because you think I've backtracked. How big is your ego?
How big is my ego? It pales into insignificance when compared to yours.

Coming from guy who created a thread claiming he was "saying what needed to be said" as if nobody had ever heard it before. Like some sort of rebel defying conformity. Sorry friend, you are not some of free thinker pushing the boundaries and bringing anything new to the table. You some random guy engaging in a bit of nerd rage by smearing anybody who disagrees with you or his delivery as a zealot, fundamentalist, trekmujahadeen, etc. While simultaneously claiming you are completely right about everything.

This will be my last post to you. I can't be bothered to talk to trolls. Get in your last word and claim victory to satisfy that gigantic ego that you have.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hey Moderator, you took me to task for calling this obvious guy a douchebag while you let him swear and call people "Zealot", "Fundamentalist", "Trekmujhadeen", etc.

Thanks for being even handed in the matter.


My take???

BOTH of you need to simmer the hell DOWN.

And yes - you read that right. BOTH of you.

If you can't avoid making it personal, put each other on 'ignore' or something. Otherwise, the two of you are gonna find yourselves on the express train to Warningville.

Thanks.
 
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