On killing major characters...

[Norrin Radd]

I was reading this older article about Connor Trinnear's reaction to getting killed off in the final ep of Enterprise...

he felt that the death scene itself was scripted somewhat arbitrarily because "I've gotten out of much worse scrapes than that"

http://www.treknation.com/articles/trinneer_trektrak2005.shtml

I think this is interesting because it also applies other lame Trek death scenes I've witnessed, especially Kirk's.

If you're going to kill a major character off...one who's already been through hell and lived to tell about it...you'd better make sure he's killed through very extraordinary circumstances.

Otherwise, the audience just ain't gonna buy it.

 

[2 of 10]

Just because a major character gets killed off, it does not have to be some some heroic action that got our hero killed. RFK got killed in a kitchen in some LA Hotel, JFK got killed in a car shooting. Thousands of avegrage GI's got killed on the beaches of Normandy doiong something heroic. The point being, just because you're some person of importance,does not mean that you will die while doing something heroic.
Kirk was killed while defeating Soran, the way he died does not negat his contribution to stopping Soran, Spock died while saving the Enterprise, Janzia died in a Bajorian temple, nothing to heroic about that, heros sometimes die in very common ways doing common things, and average people sometimes die while doing something heroic. It's just the way that lilfe works sometimes...

 

[JiNX-01]

Just because a major character gets killed off, it does not have to be some some heroic action that got our hero killed. RFK got killed in a kitchen in some LA Hotel, JFK got killed in a car shooting. Thousands of avegrage GI's got killed on the beaches of Normandy doiong something heroic. The point being, just because you're some person of importance,does not mean that you will die while doing something heroic.
Kirk was killed while defeating Soran, the way he died does not negat his contribution to stopping Soran, Spock died while saving the Enterprise, Janzia died in a Bajorian temple, nothing to heroic about that, heros sometimes die in very common ways doing common things, and average people sometimes die while doing something heroic. It's just the way that lilfe works sometimes...

No disputing that people die in ordinary ways. But fictional heroes -- the well-written ones anyway -- are larger than life. And when a hero dies, it absolutely has to be heroic, and have emotional impact (and no, being appalled doesn't count).

Kirk went out on the bridge to get the device, but had no reason to think that he wouldn't "cheat death" as he had so many times before. He risked his life, but no more so than on dozens of other occasions.

Spock knew that what he had to do to save the ship -- to save Kirk -- would kill him. The setup and death of Spock were beautifully written, staged and performed against a gorgeous soundtrack. Lots of emotional power there.

That's what fans want from their heroes -- greatness. Whether it's a rescue, a sacrifice or a death. Make it glorious!

 

[DonIago]

I sometimes think the question isn't so much whether the death should be in some sort of extraordinary manner, but whether the audience is likely to end up feeling as though it should have been avoidable.

Barring technobabble, there doesn't seem to be a ready answer to "How could Spock _not_ have died in TWOK?" Meanwhile, it's easy to think of ways that Kirk's death could have been avoided (Picard could have been a bit smarter about where and when he chose to exist the Nexus, for instance).

SG-1 killed a secondary character in a routine way, and the episode was notable precisely because there were no extraordinary elements involved. These people gamble with their lives every time they go through the gate, and sometimes they lose.

"Risk is our business."

 

[jamestyler]

SG-1 killed a secondary character in a routine way, and the episode was notable precisely because there were no extraordinary elements involved. These people gamble with their lives every time they go through the gate, and sometimes they lose.

If you mean Dr. Fraser, that was done perfectly. An episode essentially revolving around her death, yet all we saw on screen was a yelp at the end from her dying from doing her job.

With DS9 Jadzia's death was all in O'Briens speech in the previous episode hinting that anyone could die (with a sneaky focus on her), then next she's planning out her life and boom... dead. While it was a quick meaningless death, they dealt with it in the fallout.

Some of the best TV deaths have just happened. Henry Blakes on MASH was one of the best and all you got from that was Radar informing the staff. I don't think you need a big blowout - but you do need a good reaction.

 

[Deckerd]

Wash's in Serenity was really well done. Quick and pointless, like most violent deaths.

 

[DonIago]

^I almost jumped out of my seat when that one happened.

Contrast with Trinity's in the Matrix Trilogy, which happens under similar circumstances but ends up feeling incredibly hollow because we were nearing the end of what we knew to be the final movie in the series, and there frankly wasn't anything left to do with her.

That being said, I love the moment when the ship breaks through the clouds.

 

[S'kai]

FWIW, the original ending of Generations had Soren shooting Kirk in the back. It was changed after the initial focus group audiences complained that Kirk should die a more heroic death.

 

[Semah]

Wash's in Serenity was really well done. Quick and pointless, like most violent deaths.

And made the viewer aware that no one was safe, if the movie was going to kill off the author insertion character so callously.

I seriously thought the whole group was going to die after that.

 

[Hambone]

I sometimes think the question isn't so much whether the death should be in some sort of extraordinary manner, but whether the audience is likely to end up feeling as though it should have been avoidable.

True, but I agree that in the universe of TV drama, a meaningful and heroic death is preferable to, say, eating a poisoned chicken sandwich or falling down a turbolift shaft.

 

[Praetor]

It depends whether you want the character to be a Hero or a hero. If you're writing from the perspective of 'these aren't real people, they're characters, they're special' then you should give them a Valhalla-worthy death.

If you're trying to make your characters more realistic, or trying to make a point, then a piece of stray shrapnel or a shot in the back does the job fine. Realistic characters can be given more significant deaths via personal sacrifice or climactic conclusions (like pulling the pin on a grenade and jumping on the enemy), but shouldn't seem invulnerable otherwise.

But I think the two styles can't really mix on a given franchise or you undermine credibility.

 

[cultcross]

Contrast with Trinity's in the Matrix Trilogy, which happens under similar circumstances but ends up feeling incredibly hollow because we were nearing the end of what we knew to be the final movie in the series, and there frankly wasn't anything left to do with her.

One of the worst done major character deaths in the genre, imho. She gets impaled by all those bars from somewhere, and just lies there, still basically fine until she and Neo have said their piece, then dies at just the right moment - I hate that. And her death was in there solely because they didn't want her in the next scene.
As Deckerd said, Wash's death was very well done - instant, pointless, wrenching, yet because of what he'd just done, quite heroic in an ass backwards, Firefly sort of way.

Obviously, no two characters have the same 'perfect death' sequence, otherwise it'd be boring. But the concept that every heroic character has to go out in a blaze of glory saving the ship, the planet, or the universe is silly, to me. Some deaths liek this can work, I'm not saying they never can - Spock's springs to mind - but they're not a necessity for a good on screen death.

 

[Gotham Central]

The real problem is Star Trek's overall aversion to death. The reason that people make such a big deal about how trivial Trip's death was is that death is so rare (amongst main characters) on these shows. Its only in the context of death being rare that "simple" deaths look problematic. The things that people on Star Trek do on a day to day basis are fairly dangerous...yet no one ever dies. I love DS9 but given the carnage of the Dominion War...Jadzia should not have been the only casualty. People die in war, and that should have been a part of the story (at least they acknowledged that people do get injured and not not everyone is heroic).

One of the biggest flaws of Star Trek has been that there is no real danger. We know that, come what may, our heroes will ALL come out unscathed in the end. People are rarely afforded that luxury on other TV dramas.

Star Trek need to learn that its ok to put characters in danger....and that it adds to dramatic tension if occasionally someone does not come back.

 

[Praetor]

Well said.

 

[mirandafave]

I think it is fair to say that Spock's death was the most perfect and heroic death. It managed to be heroic because it was so self-sacrificing and it worked because the radiation that was killing him allowed him to have his last words with Kirk. Mind you somewhat spoiled by his not ending up dead. Ah well!

The other deaths in Trek have garnered criticism because they've been perceived as too normal or not kick ass heroic enough. I think this is a fair point when you consider Tasha's, Dax's, Trip's all seem underwhelming in some way.

Kirk's death is problematic because he is so iconic and he cheated death so many times it seems he could never really die. Shatner doesn't think so too hence his resurrection novels.

But concerning Tasha's I think in hindsight it was a good death becuase she died in the line of duty as she wanted plus she was able to speak at her own memorial. The fact it wasn't as she expected in a hail of gunfire probably underlines th etragedy of it but her death also bespoke of how easy it was to die as witnessed by so many redshirts over the years. In a way it shook up TNG in that you thought any one could die. So when Picard was assimilated you thought there might jut be a chance he does die. Of course as the seasons passed that danger evaporated.

Dax's death is lame though to me. The series was having a two season war that had been built u long before hand. To not have a major character die in the war effort made it seem silly and cheapened in a way the real dangers faced by soldiers. Her death should have happened in the course of the war not a silly prophet sideline.

Even Sisko's 'demise' at the end of DS9 was a cop out. And yet I love DS9 but those two things do stick in my mind.

Trip's death was silly because it was in a silly episode that got it wrong on so many fronts and the manner in which he died and at the hands of his own work. It belittled his talents as O'Connor says Trip got out of worse scrapes and then got a massage from a sexy Vulcan for it.

Data's death was heroic but I think the whole B4 thing and downloading his memories forecasted it and lessened its impact. Had there been no B4 and no return for Data then it would have worked more.

So I do think Trek mishandles major character deaths when you consider a majority are damp squibs and not heroic. I agree they do not need to be heroic because in looking back I now tend to think Tasha's death was one of the best in being surprising, unexpected but part of the plot, It's downside is her death was hardly refferred to afterwards it had some ramifications in that we saw Worf progress up the career ladder and we had Yesterday's Enterprise and Reuification episodes.

Anyway that's my lecture done.

 

[Praetor]

I think it is fair to say that Spock's death was the most perfect and heroic death. It managed to be heroic because it was so self-sacrificing and it worked because the radiation that was killing him allowed him to have his last words with Kirk. Mind you somewhat spoiled by his not ending up dead. Ah well!

The other deaths in Trek have garnered criticism because they've been perceived as too normal or not kick ass heroic enough. I think this is a fair point when you consider Tasha's, Dax's, Trip's all seem underwhelming in some way.

Agreed.

Kirk's death is problematic because he is so iconic and he cheated death so many times it seems he could never really die. Shatner doesn't think so too hence his resurrection novels.

I think the best way to have handled Kirk's death is to have not handled it. What's that old quote? 'Old soldiers don't die, they fade away'? Kirk fighting his aging the way he did made sense, but I can see him eventually giving in and just retiring and being happy with Carol Marcus somewhere. But my point is, it should have been left ambiguous.

But concerning Tasha's I think in hindsight it was a good death becuase she died in the line of duty as she wanted plus she was able to speak at her own memorial. The fact it wasn't as she expected in a hail of gunfire probably underlines th etragedy of it but her death also bespoke of how easy it was to die as witnessed by so many redshirts over the years. In a way it shook up TNG in that you thought any one could die. So when Picard was assimilated you thought there might jut be a chance he does die. Of course as the seasons passed that danger evaporated.

Exactly... there the point was that anyone could die. And despite what Guinan said in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it really wasn't a meaningless death, it was a death in the line of duty.

Dax's death is lame though to me. The series was having a two season war that had been built u long before hand. To not have a major character die in the war effort made it seem silly and cheapened in a way the real dangers faced by soldiers. Her death should have happened in the course of the war not a silly prophet sideline.

Dax's death could have been handled better. I think Terry Farrell originally requested she be killed off in 'Change of Heart' in such a way that Worf not only fails the mission trying to save Dax, but Dax dies anyway, but TPTB nixed that idea. Had they done that, it would have served the characters and the show much better.

Even Sisko's 'demise' at the end of DS9 was a cop out. And yet I love DS9 but those two things do stick in my mind.

I'm torn on Sisko. They did go a little overly supernatural with the Prophet/Pah-wraith stuff at the end, and he's one whose life had been handled in such a superheroic fashion that, like Kirk, it would be hard to come up with a 'fitting' end for him.

Trip's death was silly because it was in a silly episode that got it wrong on so many fronts and the manner in which he died and at the hands of his own work. It belittled his talents as O'Connor says Trip got out of worse scrapes and then got a massage from a sexy Vulcan for it.

Agreed.

Data's death was heroic but I think the whole B4 thing and downloading his memories forecasted it and lessened its impact. Had there been no B4 and no return for Data then it would have worked more.

Agreed, but I also think the plot holes surrounding his death and the obvious 'forced' qualities of it cheapened it more than having B-4 there.

So I do think Trek mishandles major character deaths when you consider a majority are damp squibs and not heroic. I agree they do not need to be heroic because in looking back I now tend to think Tasha's death was one of the best in being surprising, unexpected but part of the plot, It's downside is her death was hardly refferred to afterwards it had some ramifications in that we saw Worf progress up the career ladder and we had Yesterday's Enterprise and Reuification episodes.

Anyway that's my lecture done.

I agree with those points too. Yar's death was largely ignored afterward.

 

[plynch]

Dax's death was fine until the hokey deathbed scene. If you're gonna kill her off, that's fine; she's in the wrong place at the wrong time, and Dukat even apologizes to her seeming-corpse. But wait - she lives!! But just barely. And Starfleet medical which can save any major character any other time can't help her. Boooo.

Also hokey is what someone above mentioned: all the majors being unscathed in the war. Picture a huge battle scene, mighty starships blowing up to the left and right (all apparently without shields up), but the Defiant comes through unscathed. Oh, shaken up, with some explosions on the bridge, of course, but everybody is fine. Come on. It's weird, but I want a bit more realism in my sci/fi fantasy shows.

 

[plynch]

And another thing . . .
As for Data in Nemesis, I refuse even to acknowledge it happened. The whole movie actually. But B-4? B-4? Come on, is this Lost in Space or something? And it was a rehash of Spock in TWOK, anyway. Wow.

I am torn re. Kirk's death. I kind of like it. People die. They don't utter monumental last words, necessarily. "Oh, my." But I grew up with Kirk being the hero. So for HIM, maybe something grander. Okay, I'm vented out.

 

[Praetor]

Am I the only one that actually prefers Kirk to be shot in the back, rather than falling off the bridge?

 

[JustKate]

I don't know. I get really tired of the glorious death thing -- and I don't just mean in Trek, I mean in everything. (Maybe I've just watched too many war movies and westerns with the good guys gasping out something noble at the end.) So I'm OK with the way Kirk went. He died for what he believed in, and that's the main thing.