Even if you don't expect a show to do particularly well, you never want to give that impression. Just like you don't tell a girl that you like all your flaws before asking her out. I haven't exactly been obsessing over every bit of Dollhouse news, but everything I've seen come out of fox the last few months has been faint praise at best. No one over there seems excited for this show and it makes me wonder why they even bothered to pick it up.
I'm getting the impression that if it wasn't for Joss's name, they wouldn't even be bothering to AIR the thing.
C
cynical dreamer
Guest
Again, for me it's the attitude of the folks at Fox who seem to beleive that being a fan of the man's work means we'll watch no matter what.
I agree there's a certain portion who will do just that. Take a look at how many people post on whedonesque once Joss has posted.
Guess it's celebrity culture. Anybody who's ever been to a Star Trek convention knows all about how pervasive that is.
But I'm ranting and that's never good...
I agree there's a certain portion who will do just that. Take a look at how many people post on whedonesque once Joss has posted.
Guess it's celebrity culture. Anybody who's ever been to a Star Trek convention knows all about how pervasive that is.
But I'm ranting and that's never good...
I've lost much faith in Whedon over the years and this "Dollhouse" looks like its a destined flop. I've never been much of an Eliza Dushku fan since I think she's not nearly a good enough actress to pull any role off. You also have to question the mindset of Whedon returning to Fox, the studio this great writer/producer swore he would never, ever work with again. I'm not sure why I've been sceptical since day one maybe its because Whedon going back to Fox with the begging bowl reminded me of an abused dog return to its former master!?
Whedon cant but help injecting his liberal politics into the shows, away from the sets he was a big fundraiser for John Kerry. Yes I can be conservative, yes I can be liberal but I don't care much about who this guy votes for since I can also be liberal I've got liberal attitudes myself like I belive in a woman's right to choose and I'm for immigration and other issues....who he votes for is a non-issue for me. However what bugs me is Joss Whedon's militant femism, it often creeps into the mans work. A year and a half ago the man went into a series of huge rants about some unfortunate Kurdish girl who was stoned to death by a mob in Iraq. Whedon rather than addressing how Iraq has been decending into violence and murder since maybe October 2003... well maybe that's too early but definely by early 2004 Iraq was a place of ethnic violence, suicide bombers and religious extremism. Instead of addressing these issues Whedon and his warped militant femist mind accused all men of being a bunch of jealous, oppressive cowards. He said these crazy Iraqi men were basically angered by the fact women had wombs and more or less ranted all men think its cool to keep women downtrodden and subjugated. I can only stomach so much of the man's politics because Whedon in my not so humble opinion needs to STFU
and if he thinks he can make all male tv viewers feel guility for being a human with an xy chromosome Whedon needs to FUCK OFF! This was an illegal war supported not just by warmongering men like Cheney but by hawkish female leaders, it was an illegal invasion supported by women like Condi and Hillary. So Whendon's assertion in order to create the perfect utopia all men must step down and make way for the next Cleopatra and Catherine the Great is complete bunk. Their really isn't much difference between either sex of the human race and women can equally as hawkish and as stupid as men.
I don't dislike Whedon's work, in fact I think sometimes the man can truly make magic and the series Firefly has to be one of the best scifi shows out there. With Firefly you've got this wonderful mix of science fiction and the old cowboy culture, a wonderful backstory and great characters. 14 great epsiodes not a bad one in the bunch. Since Firefly, I feel Whedon returned to being very medicore. Angel and Buffy animated are disasters I just can't watch, Serenity was exactly when Firefly jumped the shark, and that Dr Horrible phenomena is a dumb joke. It took him 3 years to come up with the childish, amateurish Dr Horrible production and still the Whedonesque bootlickers keep insisting everything the man creates is golden. One wonders how did Joss brainwash these Whedonesque zombies and do they not regret for all their internet hype and adoration they could be collecting a nice guerilla marketing paycheck. I sometimes wonder if people like Whedon could create their own cult, I mean you've already got a bunch of bootlicking people who thinks the man almost walks on water with his tv shows. It might only be a matter of time before the guy makes himself the next L Ron Hubbard.
Whedon cant but help injecting his liberal politics into the shows, away from the sets he was a big fundraiser for John Kerry. Yes I can be conservative, yes I can be liberal but I don't care much about who this guy votes for since I can also be liberal I've got liberal attitudes myself like I belive in a woman's right to choose and I'm for immigration and other issues....who he votes for is a non-issue for me. However what bugs me is Joss Whedon's militant femism, it often creeps into the mans work. A year and a half ago the man went into a series of huge rants about some unfortunate Kurdish girl who was stoned to death by a mob in Iraq. Whedon rather than addressing how Iraq has been decending into violence and murder since maybe October 2003... well maybe that's too early but definely by early 2004 Iraq was a place of ethnic violence, suicide bombers and religious extremism. Instead of addressing these issues Whedon and his warped militant femist mind accused all men of being a bunch of jealous, oppressive cowards. He said these crazy Iraqi men were basically angered by the fact women had wombs and more or less ranted all men think its cool to keep women downtrodden and subjugated. I can only stomach so much of the man's politics because Whedon in my not so humble opinion needs to STFU
and if he thinks he can make all male tv viewers feel guility for being a human with an xy chromosome Whedon needs to FUCK OFF! This was an illegal war supported not just by warmongering men like Cheney but by hawkish female leaders, it was an illegal invasion supported by women like Condi and Hillary. So Whendon's assertion in order to create the perfect utopia all men must step down and make way for the next Cleopatra and Catherine the Great is complete bunk. Their really isn't much difference between either sex of the human race and women can equally as hawkish and as stupid as men.
I don't dislike Whedon's work, in fact I think sometimes the man can truly make magic and the series Firefly has to be one of the best scifi shows out there. With Firefly you've got this wonderful mix of science fiction and the old cowboy culture, a wonderful backstory and great characters. 14 great epsiodes not a bad one in the bunch. Since Firefly, I feel Whedon returned to being very medicore. Angel and Buffy animated are disasters I just can't watch, Serenity was exactly when Firefly jumped the shark, and that Dr Horrible phenomena is a dumb joke. It took him 3 years to come up with the childish, amateurish Dr Horrible production and still the Whedonesque bootlickers keep insisting everything the man creates is golden. One wonders how did Joss brainwash these Whedonesque zombies and do they not regret for all their internet hype and adoration they could be collecting a nice guerilla marketing paycheck. I sometimes wonder if people like Whedon could create their own cult, I mean you've already got a bunch of bootlicking people who thinks the man almost walks on water with his tv shows. It might only be a matter of time before the guy makes himself the next L Ron Hubbard.
Which episode was this in?
Why do these conversations end up devolving in to either "His fans are nuts." "He's a librul man hater/he's too existential." or "Spike's an evil rapist and he loves him." Why can they never just be about the show...
Whedon fans may try to deny it but the shows can be politically biased and liberal attitudes are there in his shows. I imagine he first got converted to this whole militant feminism thing thanks to Roseanne Barr a loudmouth battleaxe actress who makes Rosie O'Donnell look tame 
Joss spent his early years working next to this big liberal loudspeaker on a comedy called Rossane.
He first jumped into that vamp thing sending his script to Fox and a young film school grad Kuzui to make this KristySwanson/LukePerry movie.
This Buffy was a movie which took the horror genre, a genre which normally would be very sexist or misogynistic and flipped it on its head.
When Whedon got the show he took it one step further and at times started promoting his own militant feminsim, misandry and other liberal attitudes. Of course the Whedonphiles will claim the shows are totally balanced and don't promote any kind of political bias 
but what does it say for Whedon and his daytime television when you see Willow and her lesbian friend sticking each others tongues down their throats. I've heard he also gave the thumbs up for the printing of t-shirts with a Buffy style logo Barack the tyrant slayer (I'm assume the tyrant thing refers to Republicans, McCain or Bush 
)
As to the whole crazy Joss Whedon Iraqi rants where he blames all the evil and violence in the world on man and accuses all men of being a bunch of jealous, oppressive cowards and alleged crazy stuff like saying men think its cool to keep women downtrodden. Well you can find those rants all over the place. Whedon keeps in touch with his fans through emails and blogging and I'm sure any number of Whedonphiles can point you out to some firefly/buffy sites where you can dig through the archives of his rants and archives of militant feminism.
I certainly don't hate his shows, Joss is able to create some wonderful work and I recommend the series Firefly to anyone. This Firefly show has to be one of the best scifi shows yet.
The Firefly characters, the Alliance, the transport ship Serenity are all part of a wonderful story in a wonderful universe. However just because the show is wonderful doesn't mean I have to worship its producer/writer religiously like some kind of mindless drone. Joss told the worlds media he was never going back to Fox and I do find him to be a hypocrite, this is a man who said he would never work with Fox again and look at the rut he stands in now. 
If Whedon comes back in a few weeks time with a big BOooo-HOoo-Waaa! story on how Fox canceled his show he can Go-Spit! because I for one won't be feeling sorry for him. I for one will probably be laughing at the Whendonphiles with their stupid save Eliza Dushku from cancellation petitions 
Joss spent his early years working next to this big liberal loudspeaker on a comedy called Rossane. He first jumped into that vamp thing sending his script to Fox and a young film school grad Kuzui to make this KristySwanson/LukePerry movie.
This Buffy was a movie which took the horror genre, a genre which normally would be very sexist or misogynistic and flipped it on its head.
When Whedon got the show he took it one step further and at times started promoting his own militant feminsim, misandry and other liberal attitudes. Of course the Whedonphiles will claim the shows are totally balanced and don't promote any kind of political bias but what does it say for Whedon and his daytime television when you see Willow and her lesbian friend sticking each others tongues down their throats. I've heard he also gave the thumbs up for the printing of t-shirts with a Buffy style logo Barack the tyrant slayer (I'm assume the tyrant thing refers to Republicans, McCain or Bush )As to the whole crazy Joss Whedon Iraqi rants where he blames all the evil and violence in the world on man and accuses all men of being a bunch of jealous, oppressive cowards and alleged crazy stuff like saying men think its cool to keep women downtrodden. Well you can find those rants all over the place. Whedon keeps in touch with his fans through emails and blogging and I'm sure any number of Whedonphiles can point you out to some firefly/buffy sites where you can dig through the archives of his rants and archives of militant feminism.
I certainly don't hate his shows, Joss is able to create some wonderful work and I recommend the series Firefly to anyone. This Firefly show has to be one of the best scifi shows yet.
The Firefly characters, the Alliance, the transport ship Serenity are all part of a wonderful story in a wonderful universe. However just because the show is wonderful doesn't mean I have to worship its producer/writer religiously like some kind of mindless drone. Joss told the worlds media he was never going back to Fox and I do find him to be a hypocrite, this is a man who said he would never work with Fox again and look at the rut he stands in now. If Whedon comes back in a few weeks time with a big BOooo-HOoo-Waaa! story on how Fox canceled his show he can Go-Spit! because I for one won't be feeling sorry for him. I for one will probably be laughing at the Whendonphiles with their stupid save Eliza Dushku from cancellation petitions
And to think the fans are supposedly the obsessive ones here. I think some people need to look in the mirror.
Same here, although I do occasionally like to have a complain about something I think is ruining a show I like. Then again I occasionally like to nitpick for fun. But mostly if I don't like a show at all I tend not to watch past a few episodes, and then I don't go in to discussions about it and rant about how I don't like it.
Exactly. Why am I gonna read that above rant when the guy blatently admitted to having only seen three minutes of Buffy, ever. But aparantly that makes him the expert. Go figure
Said it in the other thread, but I'll say it again here (in a slightly different way though
)
C
cynical dreamer
Guest
I started the thread and more than anything I was railing against Fox's implication that Joss' fans will just be there out of duty when that is not the case for all. And how such blind devotion is not something to be aspired to.
As to the guy railing against Joss' liberalism, implied or otherwise, so what. I like when an artist puts forth their view of the world. It's like when people get mad at a band for being 'political'. I'll never understand that. I want to hear what an artist has to say whether I beleive in it myself or not. This whole, "shut up and sing" mentality is bass ackwards.
...
Back to topic and for what it's worth... I really liked season's 6 and 7 of Buffy. In fact S7 has my favorite episode of Buffy ('Conversations With Dead People'). I also loved Firefly and Serenity.
Just saw Dr. Horrible last night and loved it (how hot is Felicia Day??!)
My point in the end was that you can be a fan and love most of his work but don't just blindly love it because Joss' name is attached to it. Far too often i see people post here or on whedonesque where the post is "I'll watch it and I'll love it. Hey it's Joss." Well... why not watch it and then make a decision? Why should being a fan mean leaving your critical thinking at the door?
As to the guy railing against Joss' liberalism, implied or otherwise, so what. I like when an artist puts forth their view of the world. It's like when people get mad at a band for being 'political'. I'll never understand that. I want to hear what an artist has to say whether I beleive in it myself or not. This whole, "shut up and sing" mentality is bass ackwards.
...
Back to topic and for what it's worth... I really liked season's 6 and 7 of Buffy. In fact S7 has my favorite episode of Buffy ('Conversations With Dead People'). I also loved Firefly and Serenity.
Just saw Dr. Horrible last night and loved it (how hot is Felicia Day??!)
My point in the end was that you can be a fan and love most of his work but don't just blindly love it because Joss' name is attached to it. Far too often i see people post here or on whedonesque where the post is "I'll watch it and I'll love it. Hey it's Joss." Well... why not watch it and then make a decision? Why should being a fan mean leaving your critical thinking at the door?
C
cynical dreamer
Guest
And Lindley, fair play, there's definately some truth to that. I guess I'm coming at this with a film student mentality more than anything. For me I don't see much worth is everyone patting each other on the back and saying "isn't it all wonderful". You can enjoy it and still look at it with a critical eye.
But finding the good is so rare that ranting over the bad is at least some compensation.
It looks like Whedon bit off more than he could chew with this show, most of it sounds like Whedon wanted to spend most of each episode showcasing the talents of Eliza Dushku allowing her to go into reprogram mode going from traumatized girl, to delighted melodramatic girl, to invincible kickass girl, to something else. However since Eliza Dushku has limited ability as an actress this enshrined tribute to Eliza Dushku is more likely to fall flat on its face. Fox wanting to reshoot the pilot doesn't sound good and the show will probably suck a lot less if Joss keeps his regular injection of politics out of the series.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
No, it doesn't, and that's why we all know that guy from Fox is lying through his teeth. Behold; it's all about ECONOMICS.
Ratings determine how much commercials cost. Commercials pay for the show. If the money from the commercials cannot pay for the show's cost, or if the profit margin isn't high enough, the show gets canceled.
Dollhouse is a scripted show, on top of that an SF show with elaborate sets and special effects.
That makes it a VERY EXPENSIVE show. A very expensive show, needs at least decent ratings to get a big enough profit margin the suits and the share holders they have to report can justify putting the show on the air.
Putting a VERY EXPENSIVE show in a time slot, where by definition it will have to be a major hit just to get decent ratings; is killing it on before hand. The people who will make the decision to axe this show, aren't going to care whether not is in a death slot.
All they care about is the bottom line. They look at the cost of the show, look at what they can ask for the commercials, do a little substraction, and if the number is negative or not big enough - they order their underlings to get them the axe they'l be using on it.