"Shields at 60%, Captain!"

[Praetorian]

"Target their weapons/engines/treknobable device"^
"Aye, sir. Direct hit! They're standing down/disabled"
"Seems we got their attention!"

Is it my impression or this sort of situation happened way too often? Mostly in TNG and Voy. Now I know space battles aren't what really maters (though most of us sure love a nice battle) but I wonder who came up with this insipid way of showing a battle. Certanly it's not technological since there were enganging battles even in TNG Season 1 (or even TOS).
Possibly a budget issue. But then why even bother with this sad display?
Sometimes it seemed that producers were also afraid of having a "violent" battle but wanted the (cheap) thrills these "battles" could provide.

If Star Trek ever returns I certanly hope this kind of scene won't appear! I would much prefer not having a battle at all! (that tends to be superfluous, specially in these cases)

On a related note feel free to talk albout battles you thought were well done and had relevance too.

I must say I am fond of those momments where the Enterprise-D got to show it's offensive power:

Arsenal of Freedom
Q Who?
The Survivors
Yesterday's Enterprise
Best of Both Worlds

Strangely the Ent-D seemed to go full out more in the earlier seasons... In later seasons I can only remember Conundrum and All Good Things...
Not even in episodes like Redemption or Descent it happened...

 

[eepruls]

The 'battles' in TNG were weak and never felt dangerous. The ships didn't even move. They sat staring at each other and one would fire, and then the other would fire. Then they would talk it out, stand down, and fly away. And I always hated how one shot from an enemy would render the Enterprise susceptible to destruction with one more hit and yet no damage is present in the ship - the lights don't even go out! A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship. Picard would say, "I'm going to drop the shields now at which time you are free to fire and destroy the ship". I mean, that's pretty pathetic. A super advanced unknown race might be able to do that with one shot, but not a regular enemy like the Romulans or Klingons.

I always wished we would get to see the Enterprise in an actual battle situation where the ship moves and escapes, hides, or does something where Picard's battle techniques can be shown (Peak Performance was close but that wasn't real). We know he's a good negotiator but why couldn't we have a little bit of a battle with the Romulans before the negotiation stars so we understand why they are so feared? Can we not have fire, sparks, or smoke on the Enterprise? How about a few crew members killed, or at least have an injury? I was always disappointed that we saw none of the battle at Wolf 359.

You're right about the earlier episodes having more battle footage though.

 

[Kaziarl]

The 'battles' in TNG were weak and never felt dangerous. The ships didn't even move. They sat staring at each other and one would fire, and then the other would fire. Then they would talk it out, stand down, and fly away. And I always hated how one shot from an enemy would render the Enterprise susceptible to destruction with one more hit and yet no damage is present in the ship - the lights don't even go out! A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship. Picard would say, "I'm going to drop the shields now at which time you are free to fire and destroy the ship". I mean, that's pretty pathetic. A super advanced unknown race might be able to do that with one shot, but not a regular enemy like the Romulans or Klingons.

I always wished we would get to see the Enterprise in an actual battle situation where the ship moves and escapes, hides, or does something where Picard's battle techniques can be shown (Peak Performance was close but that wasn't real). We know he's a good negotiator but why couldn't we have a little bit of a battle with the Romulans before the negotiation stars so we understand why they are so feared? Can we not have fire, sparks, or smoke on the Enterprise? How about a few crew members killed, or at least have an injury? I was always disappointed that we saw none of the battle at Wolf 359.

You're right about the earlier episodes having more battle footage though.

Thats one thing I liked about Insurrection and Nemesis. I actually liked Insurrection, but nemesis was kinda sad in the execution of the plot. But the battle with Shinzon's ship was epic. And talk about damage, there was a hole where the view screen was supposed to be.

 

[TheRealNaveed]

With Voyager I got to thinking that most of the fights were like Pokemon battles, in that they were pretty much all text except for, like, static animation.

"VOYAGER uses PHASER BEAM! ... VOYAGER missed!"

 

[JNG]

A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship.

Wouldn't this suggest to viewers that Romulan weapons are inferior to those we have today?

 

[Timo]

I for one have always found it pretty disgusting that violence on the part of the heroes is "justified" by showing that the villains are stronger. Not necessarily even meaner, just stronger. As if being the underdog justified fighting.

TNG makes a delightful exception by showing that the heroes have superior firepower, and never are in danger from the enemy guns. That's a true test of heroism: can they hold back from slaughtering the enemy, even though they have the means to do so?

That's why I found some small satisfaction in Star Wars I, too: whatever the shortcomings of the movie, it was nice to see the heroes so completely overpower the thousands upon thousands of enemy BEMs and robots that the villains would go to utter panic at the thought of just two of the good guys being in the neighborhood...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2 of 10]

In Voyager episode Year of Hell pt 2, the front section of Voyager bridge is torn off, Janeway looking through a force field where the view screen used to be said those immortal words...."TIMES UP"...is also a time where there is no there bulkhead where there should be one...

 

[eepruls]

A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship.

Wouldn't this suggest to viewers that Romulan weapons are inferior to those we have today?

Not sure I understand you here. What do the weapons of today have to do with the 24th century? Are you saying that weapons of today would destroy the Enterprise with one shot and therefore the Romulan's weapons should as well?

I would assume the hull on the Enterprise with 1014 people aboard is stronger than say the ISS's hull in orbit right now. I mean, of course the Romulan ship (or whatever other alien is attacking) should do major damage to the Enterprise when the shields are down, like blow a hole through the hull or destroy communications or something. But the ship shouldn't just explode from the first hit to the saucer section.

 

[Hermiod]

The 'battles' in TNG were weak and never felt dangerous. The ships didn't even move. They sat staring at each other and one would fire, and then the other would fire. Then they would talk it out, stand down, and fly away. And I always hated how one shot from an enemy would render the Enterprise susceptible to destruction with one more hit and yet no damage is present in the ship - the lights don't even go out! A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship. Picard would say, "I'm going to drop the shields now at which time you are free to fire and destroy the ship". I mean, that's pretty pathetic. A super advanced unknown race might be able to do that with one shot, but not a regular enemy like the Romulans or Klingons.

One shot might not destroy the ship, but if they get the shot right it might leave them unable to respond or raise the shields again.

 

[Kaziarl]

The 'battles' in TNG were weak and never felt dangerous. The ships didn't even move. They sat staring at each other and one would fire, and then the other would fire. Then they would talk it out, stand down, and fly away. And I always hated how one shot from an enemy would render the Enterprise susceptible to destruction with one more hit and yet no damage is present in the ship - the lights don't even go out! A Galaxy class ship should be much more powerful and be able to withstand a little bit of fire. One shot from a Romulan vessel, even with shields down, should not destroy the ship. Picard would say, "I'm going to drop the shields now at which time you are free to fire and destroy the ship". I mean, that's pretty pathetic. A super advanced unknown race might be able to do that with one shot, but not a regular enemy like the Romulans or Klingons.

One shot might not destroy the ship, but if they get the shot right it might leave them unable to respond or raise the shields again.

If I remember right the bottom end of the E-D warp core gets pretty close to the outer skin of the ship. Get hit there and it could destroy the ship. Maybe thats the part Picard was always worried about.

 

[jgdst]

I think DS9 went a way to getting round this "shields at 47%" lark, especially during the war. In fact, there are rarely mentions of actual shield percentages and from what was seen of the ship exteriors, the ships take a pounding whether the shields or up or not (which wasn't always clear with some of the battle scenes).

It always made for an exciting battle, without being bogged down by technobabble. I think Enterprise's Azati Prime also managed to pull this off quite well (Reed actually gets out of his seat - a pretty big sign they're in trouble ).

Voyager, I think, seemed to get much more into the technical aspects of the battles, rather than going for the tension, character angle.

Nemesis still kept the technobabble, but you have reactions from the characters like looking above them as the outer hull gets pounded, and there is a certain sense of fear and "we may not get out of this" from some of the characters' expressions. So, while not a good film, a well executed battle I thought.

Just my two pennies

 

[votd]

I always liked the shot of the Klingon torpedo ripping through the Enterprise's saucer in Undiscovered Country, that showed what would happen if the shields were down and you were hit.

 

[Cky]

You know it's odd actually, I had my friend around a few weeks back and we watched the entire film collection (not all at once). And I pointed it out to him in Insurrection that the shields always seem to be at 60%. Even after they've been hit like 100 times and I'm not sure if the writers were trying to convey an atmosphere of fear on the actors part, but 60% isn't exactly low. I'd be happy if the shields were at 60%, took some more hits and were still at 60%.

 

[Cyke101]

I always liked the shot of the Klingon torpedo ripping through the Enterprise's saucer in Undiscovered Country, that showed what would happen if the shields were down and you were hit.

One of the things that I liked about that battle was how it wasn't overloaded with all the "Shields are down to 60%" and "Reroute auxiliary power to life support" (heck, I think the writers made a conscious effort to avoid the technobabble, as trusty auxiliary power is one of the first casualties of the battle!). There were some submarine flying maneuvers, but none of this nonsense about secondary systems and port shields and so on and so on, just Scotty rattling off that shields were weakening (no numbers) and Spock with an odd report here and there. Leaving out the Nemesis-esque details really helped the pacing of the battle, I think.

On another level, I'm a little disappointed in more recent Trek battles, where the ships are almost *too* swift and agile, effectively getting rid of careful, tactically-motivated maneuvers. As slow and plodding as the ship battles were in TWOK and various TNG episodes, the slow speed of the ships made me believe that these things were hulking powerhouses, like a submarine. (on another level, though, the Defiant is perfect as a flying death machine of doom)

 

[TheGodBen]

On another level, I'm a little disappointed in more recent Trek battles, where the ships are almost *too* swift and agile, effectively getting rid of careful, tactically-motivated maneuvers. As slow and plodding as the ship battles were in TWOK and various TNG episodes, the slow speed of the ships made me believe that these things were hulking powerhouses, like a submarine. (on another level, though, the Defiant is perfect as a flying death machine of doom)

I think this has more to do with the way the action is shot rather than having the ships themselves be more manoeuvrable. I'm just after looking at some of the big battle clips from DS9 and the big ships such as Galaxies tend to be very slow to manoeuvre, Excelsiors and Akiras are a little better but still slow, even small ships such as the Defiant aren't that fast. The only ships that are very fast at manoeuvring were the small fighter ships. The ships all move fast in a forward direction, but when turning they are pretty slow.

However, the sheer amount of ships, the speed of torpedoes and phasers, and the quick camera moves all give the impression that these ships are acting more like fighter-craft than submarines. Voyager and Enterprise probably used the same tricks, but even if the ships were more manoeuvrable it can be forgiven since they are much smaller ships than any of the other hero ships (excepting Defiant).

I must admit to being of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, TWOK's submarine battle was far more tense than these rapid battles we have nowadays, but I do love the huge battles in DS9.

 

[Alrik]

I just got done watching TWOK last night. I loved the way the battles were shot. And those scenes also answer the question as to how much damage will a phaser blast do or what happens if a ship gets hit by a photon torpedo when the shields are down.

 

[Trekwatcher]

While I do not love the TNG movies I always felt that they got the battle in Generations between the Enterprise and the BOP right. You really got a sense of them taking a whallop, the ship being damaged (through the shields), and that they were really in peril. I wish they had been able to convey this more often. TNG was not great most of the time at this. I used to stare in astonishment as the security teams would **walk briskly** to the site of a crisis on the ship, and not run. I think that this was part of the same problem.

 

[Cyke101]

On another level, I'm a little disappointed in more recent Trek battles, where the ships are almost *too* swift and agile, effectively getting rid of careful, tactically-motivated maneuvers. As slow and plodding as the ship battles were in TWOK and various TNG episodes, the slow speed of the ships made me believe that these things were hulking powerhouses, like a submarine. (on another level, though, the Defiant is perfect as a flying death machine of doom)

I think this has more to do with the way the action is shot rather than having the ships themselves be more manoeuvrable. I'm just after looking at some of the big battle clips from DS9 and the big ships such as Galaxies tend to be very slow to manoeuvre, Excelsiors and Akiras are a little better but still slow, even small ships such as the Defiant aren't that fast. The only ships that are very fast at manoeuvring were the small fighter ships. The ships all move fast in a forward direction, but when turning they are pretty slow.

However, the sheer amount of ships, the speed of torpedoes and phasers, and the quick camera moves all give the impression that these ships are acting more like fighter-craft than submarines. Voyager and Enterprise probably used the same tricks, but even if the ships were more manoeuvrable it can be forgiven since they are much smaller ships than any of the other hero ships (excepting Defiant).

I must admit to being of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, TWOK's submarine battle was far more tense than these rapid battles we have nowadays, but I do love the huge battles in DS9.

Normally, I'd agree with you, and I like the fact that DS9 and Voyager were consistent in keeping the Galaxy class as slow, lumbering beasts of tanking power. I imagine they could withstand quite a pounding from smaller ships and/or go toe to toe with much more powerful ships, and in both cases freeing whatever fleet or squadron they're with to do their assigned role.

The thing is, I bring up a battle like Nemesis, which was a little too flashy, the Enterprise acting more like a fighter jet with 360 turrets than an actual ship. I realize it needs to be swift, but it was almost overly so (and really, what flight tactics were there, aside from making sure the Enterprise faced the Scimitar with a stronger shield area?). Even worse was the Scimitar, for the same reasons but moreso since it was a behemoth. Had the TNG/DS9/VOY line continued, I half expected Borg cubes to eventually learn barrel rolls.

Back in the day, when I started here on Trekbbs, I would try and rationalize that the slow, special f/x-impaired TNG battles were always at the same speeds as they were in later Trek, just that the camera was always keeping up and making the battle seem slower (perspective and relativity in space, after all). But with the trend of how Voyager, the Enterprise-E, and the NX-01 all seem to have roughly the same tendencies and flight patterns, it gets hard to reconcile "fast" with "strategy."

 

[TheGodBen]

^^^ Yeah, you're right about Nemesis, there was absolutely no reason for the E-E to be flying around like that other trying to look good for the camera. I don't have as much of a problem with Voyager because it is much smaller than a Galaxy class ship, but the NX-01 definitely shouldn't have been able to pull off some of the moves it managed due to how "old" that ship was compared to others. And don't get me started on that Romulan holo-cloak ship from The Aenar.

 

[KlingonPredator]

Nemesis...good battle scenes except the Big E was much too fast. TWOK would have been better if more of the initial battle had been shown.