Spoilers Destiny: Lost Souls by David Mack Review Thread

[David Mack]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Personally I can't stand the inclusion of projectile weapons in Star Trek (novels). ... Things like projectile weapons in the hands of Starfleet is something that doesn't feel Star Trek to me.

The show itself stated that such weapons as the TR-116 had been developed for use against the Jem'Hadar, in the DS9 episode "Field of Fire." So whether or not it "feels like Star Trek" to you, it is part of Star Trek.

As for your question of why that tactic was used by Starfleet in the attack on the Borg scout ship, Hartzilla2007 summed it up perfectly. In order for the story to move forward, I had to concoct a strategy that would plausibly let the characters capture a Borg vessel intact. And to give the characters the idea was the reason for the Hirogen attack in Mere Mortals.

As for your reaction to that:

Yes, I understood the in-story reasoning. I just didn't like it

Well, there's not much I can do about that, is there?

My question is influenced by that feeling: Why did you include the friendly fire passage in Lost Souls?

Because it was an entirely logical outcome of that combat scenario, and it gave me a chance to explore the character of Lonnoc Kedair in slightly more depth later on.

Where the released borg drones given a choice? Wheather to become Caeliar or not? ...

Did this come up in the book (and was overlooked by me [entirely possible!]) or will it maybe come up at a later date, in one of the follow up books?

All I'm going to say is that you should definitely pick up Keith R.A. DeCandido's new novel A Singular Destiny, as well as the upcoming Voyager book Full Circle by Kirsten Beyer, and also the TNG novel Losing the Peace by William Leisner to learn more about this aspect of the post-Destiny fallout.

 

[Claudia]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

One thing I didn't quite understand was what went on with Seven at the end. I mean she was already no longer a member of the Collective and I'd have expected her to have a similar (if much stronger) reaction to Picard's. But the way I understood it she sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation, and didn't all her implants fall out/disappear as well? To me that doesn't quite make much sense because she needed the implants for survival, and why should they just disintegrate?

And another question about Betazoids and following up on the discussion regarding Troi from GoN: My main criticism back then was Ree's suggestion of a hysterectomy which to me at least seemed like some kind of overkill. But in LS Inyx mentioned to repair the unfertilized eggs in her uterus... Which would put a new spin on the hysterectomy, of course. But then again, wouldn't have Betazoid females, especially half-human half-Betazoid females, something akin to ovaries? Well, that kind of struck me as strange while reading. *g*

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I loved the book trilogy but personally, i found the ending to be a little too Deus Ex Machina to me. Now, that doesn't mean that i didn't like it, because i really did.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

One thing I didn't quite understand was what went on with Seven at the end. I mean she was already no longer a member of the Collective and I'd have expected her to have a similar (if much stronger) reaction to Picard's. But the way I understood it she sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation, and didn't all her implants fall out/disappear as well? To me that doesn't quite make much sense because she needed the implants for survival, and why should they just disintegrate?

Excellent questions!

The answer is: Make sure to pick up Full Circle when it comes out.

 

[BrentMc]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed the whole Destiny trilogy. David Mack to an incredible job. The way he tied in so many aspects of Star Trek and gave us both a beginning and an ending to the Borg was incredible. I liked the Aventine and Captain Dax, the NX-02 Columbia plot line, The Riker-Troi story, the incredible action in the Borg invasion sequences just to name a few of my favorite parts.


All in all, I was blown away by this trilogy and I can't wait for more.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

"I am not Nanietta Bacco, I am 1 of 8, Primary Adjunction of Unimatrix 037. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Unless the Pike City Pioneers beat the Cubs."

 

[Christopher]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

One thing I didn't quite understand was what went on with Seven at the end. I mean she was already no longer a member of the Collective and I'd have expected her to have a similar (if much stronger) reaction to Picard's. But the way I understood it she sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation

We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name. Her aunt calls her Annika, and there have been cases in the TNG-R novels where she's been referred to by other characters as Professor Hansen. It's just been her preference to go by Seven of Nine; all we know at this point is that said preference seems to have changed.

And she's different from Picard because she still had implants, and because she was a Borg far longer. Also she's simply a different individual.

 

[Cut]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Personally I can't stand the inclusion of projectile weapons in Star Trek (novels). ... Things like projectile weapons in the hands of Starfleet is something that doesn't feel Star Trek to me.

The show itself stated that such weapons as the TR-116 had been developed for use against the Jem'Hadar, in the DS9 episode "Field of Fire." So whether or not it "feels like Star Trek" to you, it is part of Star Trek.

I somehow must have missed that bit on the last run of DS9. I stick to my statement, that it doesn't feel right for Star Trek anyway

As for your question of why that tactic was used by Starfleet in the attack on the Borg scout ship, Hartzilla2007 summed it up perfectly. In order for the story to move forward, I had to concoct a strategy that would plausibly let the characters capture a Borg vessel intact. And to give the characters the idea was the reason for the Hirogen attack in Mere Mortals.

As I said, that was understood be me (and I even realized that was the reason to include an otherwise [again my feeling] out-of-place Hirogen attack in Mere Mortals). When the scenario with the probe came up, I immediately saw the use of the scene from before

As for your reaction to that:

Yes, I understood the in-story reasoning. I just didn't like it

Well, there's not much I can do about that, is there?

No, not really

My question is influenced by that feeling: Why did you include the friendly fire passage in Lost Souls?

Because it was an entirely logical outcome of that combat scenario, and it gave me a chance to explore the character of Lonnoc Kedair in slightly more depth later on.

If you put it that way... I think it wouldn't have hurt neither the character development nor the storyline if left out, but hey, who am I to try to argue with the author of such an epic work

Where the released borg drones given a choice? Wheather to become Caeliar or not? ...

Did this come up in the book (and was overlooked by me [entirely possible!]) or will it maybe come up at a later date, in one of the follow up books?

All I'm going to say is that you should definitely pick up Keith R.A. DeCandido's new novel A Singular Destiny, as well as the upcoming Voyager book Full Circle by Kirsten Beyer, and also the TNG novel Losing the Peace by William Leisner to learn more about this aspect of the post-Destiny fallout.

I had a feeling you might say something like that. But as I had the intention of reading those titles anyway that's quite fine by me I am looking forward to the books.

Thanks for taking the time to clear things up a bit for me. Might be back with some more questions later, though

 

[Claudia]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

But the way I understood it she (Seven) sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation

We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name.

It's not the name, it's the way Seven/Annika is described. I definitely got a very childlike impression of her at the end.

And she's different from Picard because she still had implants, and because she was a Borg far longer. Also she's simply a different individual.

Agreed - but I always thought of the implants as medical necessities, otherwise the EMH would have removed them. So, in essence, why doesn't she die when they disintegrate?

But I'll just follow William Leisner's advice to wait for "Full Circle" (never would have guessed I'd buy a VOY-novel! *g*).

 

[Cut]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Agreed - but I always thought of the implants as medical necessities, otherwise the EMH would have removed them. So, in essence, why doesn't she die when they disintegrate?

Ah, this reminds me of another question:

Why are there no EMHs in the sickbays of Aventine, Enterprise-E or Titan? At least I don't recall any EMH being mentioned, during the medical and triage scenes.

 

[adamczar]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

One thing I didn't quite understand was what went on with Seven at the end. I mean she was already no longer a member of the Collective and I'd have expected her to have a similar (if much stronger) reaction to Picard's. But the way I understood it she sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation

We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name. Her aunt calls her Annika, and there have been cases in the TNG-R novels where she's been referred to by other characters as Professor Hansen. It's just been her preference to go by Seven of Nine; all we know at this point is that said preference seems to have changed.

And she's different from Picard because she still had implants, and because she was a Borg far longer. Also she's simply a different individual.

I kind of got a "Lost"-like vibe after this scene was over. I kept hearing the crescendo build up to an uncomfortable climax like at the end of most cliffhangers on that show right before the titlescreen comes up, like "well, there's a LOT more to Seven that we don't know. Hello, Full Circle."

My own guess is that she had a stronger connection to the collective than we (and maybe she) realized. Just a guess, anyway.

 

[Sci]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Agreed - but I always thought of the implants as medical necessities, otherwise the EMH would have removed them. So, in essence, why doesn't she die when they disintegrate?

Ah, this reminds me of another question:

Why are there no EMHs in the sickbays of Aventine, Enterprise-E or Titan? At least I don't recall any EMH being mentioned, during the medical and triage scenes.

I seem to remember there being an EMH in Greater Than the Sum. Though, really, with the public understanding that EMHes are sentient, I'm really surprised that Starfleet's still using them. Unless those EMHes are getting control over when they are and are not activated and are getting compensated somehow for their services, wouldn't it constitute slavery?

As for the TR-116 thing....

I don't see how it's "un-Star Trek-y" to have a projectile weapon. It's not like there's a particularly notable moral difference between a bullet and a phaser set to vaporize -- killing someone is killing someone.

 

[elaithin]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I'm pretty sure that EMHs aboard the Enterprise were referenced. Wasn't there mention of the Aventine's EMH being a newer model, as well?

 

[Christopher]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Why are there no EMHs in the sickbays of Aventine, Enterprise-E or Titan? At least I don't recall any EMH being mentioned, during the medical and triage scenes.

EMHs are standard equipment in all Starfleet sickbays these days. But unlike Voyager's Doctor, they are, as the name implies, emergency systems, meant to be used in situations where living physicians are incapacitated, unavailable, or inadequate in number. There was an EMH Mark IX (which I imagined as being modeled on Dr. Zimmerman's holo-ladyfriend Haley from "Life Line," since it's high time we had a female EMH) in the triage scene in GTTS, and I'm certain that she was mentioned in Destiny as well.

Though, really, with the public understanding that EMHes are sentient, I'm really surprised that Starfleet's still using them. Unless those EMHes are getting control over when they are and are not activated and are getting compensated somehow for their services, wouldn't it constitute slavery?

Who said there's a public understanding that EMHs are sentient? The Doctor is sentient, due to his unique experiences aboard Voyager. It doesn't follow that every EMH is sentient. Oliver Baines, the leader of the "holo-revolution" in Homecoming/The Farther Shore, believed all holograms were sentient, but he was a lunatic. The only holograms that we can confidently say are sentient are the Doctor, Moriarty, the Countess, and probably Vic Fontaine.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I think the TR-116 are ST because its high time they stopped using the electric shavers and got something that really works when they're dealing with enemies who have an immunity to phasers, like the Borg and Hirogen. Naturally no weapon should be used against the Jem'Hadar though...

The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field? I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

But the way I understood it she (Seven) sort of regressed to the time before her assimilation

We don't know that. All we know is that she said her name was Annika Hansen instead of Seven of Nine. Annika Hansen is her real, legal name.

It's not the name, it's the way Seven/Annika is described. I definitely got a very childlike impression of her at the end.

Well, at the same time, Picard was collapsed on the deck crying his eyes out. Not very adult of him, either. The dissolution of the Collective and the Caeliar metamorphosis is a very powerful event that had a profound effect on both these people.

But I'll just follow William Leisner's advice to wait for "Full Circle" (never would have guessed I'd buy a VOY-novel! *g*).

And I never thought I'd recommend one! But in all seriousness, Ms. Beyer will have many of the answers you seek...

 

[KRAD]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I think the TR-116 are ST because its high time they stopped using the electric shavers and got something that really works

Those aren't electric shavers -- they're car vacuums. Get it right....

 

[David Mack]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field?

I don't know that the show ever depicted that, but in my TNG novel A Time to Heal, some Starfleet forces were equipped with modified TR-116s and later versions, which I dubbed TR-120s, though I flubbed the terminology of its exographic targeting sight (I think I called it exogenic, which makes no sense).

I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.

Well, that's a major drawback of projectile weapons. Even with a caseless ammunition system (such as was developed by Heckler & Koch for its G11 advanced combat rifle in the 1980s), one has to balance the conflicting desires for more magazine capacity and lighter weight. Add too much capacity, and the weapon becomes too heavy to use effectively in the field; reduce the capacity to lower the weight, and your troops spend all their time reloading.

The TR-116s probably carry a 30– or 50–round clip of caseless ammunition (invented by Dynamit–Nobel, for Heckler & Koch). Basically, the chemical propellant surrounds the projectile and is consumed during the firing. There is no ejected shell casing, and the combusted propellant is used to drive the reload mechanism. Because it's a closed system, it has less recoil, making it more accurate.

I'd imagine that by the 24th century, Starfleet R&D has also added better stabilizers and developed lighter, stronger composite polymers for the weapon's shell.

All in all, the TR-116 and its cousin, the TR-120, are very sophisticated and very deadly small arms. Add in their monotanium projectiles with monofilament tips, and you have weapons whose accuracy, range, and penetration capacity surpass those of any standard-issue battle rifle currently in existence.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

The TR-116 were made for the Dominion War, but if memory serves, they're a proto-type right? Were they put into the field?

I don't know that the show ever depicted that, but in my TNG novel A Time to Heal, some Starfleet forces were equipped with modified TR-116s and later versions, which I dubbed TR-120s, though I flubbed the terminology of its exographic targeting sight (I think I called it exogenic, which makes no sense).

I kinda think they need a larger magazine or somesuch- it seemed like they were running out a lot in Destiny, but maybe that was just a full-auto thing.

Well, that's a major drawback of projectile weapons. Even with a caseless ammunition system (such as was developed by Heckler & Koch for its G11 advanced combat rifle in the 1980s), one has to balance the conflicting desires for more magazine capacity and lighter weight. Add too much capacity, and the weapon becomes too heavy to use effectively in the field; reduce the capacity to lower the weight, and your troops spend all their time reloading.

The TR-116s probably carry a 30– or 50–round clip of caseless ammunition (invented by Dynamit–Nobel, for Heckler & Koch). Basically, the chemical propellant surrounds the projectile and is consumed during the firing. There is no ejected shell casing, and the combusted propellant is used to drive the reload mechanism. Because it's a closed system, it has less recoil, making it more accurate.

I'd imagine that by the 24th century, Starfleet R&D has also added better stabilizers and developed lighter, stronger composite polymers for the weapon's shell.

All in all, the TR-116 and its cousin, the TR-120, are very sophisticated and very deadly small arms. Add in their monotanium projectiles with monofilament tips, and you have weapons whose accuracy, range, and penetration capacity surpass those of any standard-issue battle rifle currently in existence.

Not to mention when you add those mini transporter things and exographic targeting sights when those are working you can hit anyone in the ship.

 

[Man of Steel]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Finally finished the trilogy and I must say that it was the best Trek book in awhile. I am not sure why we had to wait till book 3 to found out the origin of the Borg. Although in my opinion, I thought the origin story could have been written a little better because it felt forced. First the Calier came to them to explain and ask them to help and then suddenly, they walk into a trap?

I also have to give kudos to Mack for writing so much emotion in this story. First by giving Riker the tough decision of leaving his wife behind not knowing when they would return to her.

The scene with Picard lying on the floor in a fetal like position crying hysterically, while I liked it, I thought it was a bit unbecoming of a Starship Captain to do so in front of his officers. I understood why and I thought it well written but I think his breaking down emotionally would have been better off between him and Beverly in private.

And Geordi defying orders, was a bold move but it did give us a nice tribute to Data.

This trilogy was well worth the wait and kudos to Mack for writing one of the best Trek novels in recent memory.