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Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

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I don't think you even know what you're talking about, as usual.

Creationism, by it's very nature, cannot be disproven by any scientific knowledge. It can't even be addressed at all by science, let alone come into conflict with 'facts'. As such it poses no threat to science, and science poses no threat to it.

And therefor it is completely illogical, making me completely right, and completely knowing what I'm talking about.

And you demonstrate that you have no clue what you're talking about yet again. Logic does not equal scientific provablity. Nothing about creationism is illogical, it's just impossible to prove or disprove using the scientific method.

Where creationism is concerned no 'cold hard facts' exist that prove or disprove it. So I don't know where you keep getting that from. You might consider it an unlikely scenario, but that's not the same thing.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical, and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over. Just because people refuse to accept this fact, doesn't mean it isn't true. The Earth is not a mere 10,000 years old, created exactly as the bible says it does, anyone with only a slight bit of knowledge of the physical world knows it's utterly ridiculous, and not a shred of logic is part of it.
 
What I found out from that class is that there is sometimes no "right" and no "wrong" arguments, just logical arguments or not. A logically sound argument can be made for just about any viewpoint.

Just ask "Tuvix".

So many people accuse Janeway of murder after that episode, but the whole point was that it is a no-win scenario, and neither choice would leave her feeling like she made the right choice.
 
Ahem.

Lassie is a mammal.

Pigs are mammals.

Therefore, Lassie is a pig.

Perfectly logical argument, with completely true premises, with a completely wrong conclusion.

Or, we have another perfect description of logic, in somebody's sig line around here, in quoting the second Doctor:

"Logic, Zoe, only allows one to be wrong with authority!"

Actually, no.

There is a logical flaw in your reasoning called the "Fallacy of Accident" or "Dicto Simpliciter", "Destroying the Exception", or sometimes "Sweeping Generalization"

This is not a valid logical argument because of your generalization of "pigs". You would need to add qualifiers to make this a valid argument, thusly:

- Lassie is a mammal.
- Only Pigs are mammals.
- Therefore, Lassie is a pig.

Without the qualifiers that changed your generalization into a specific premise, your original argument is a logical fallacy, not a valid logical truth.

The reason that this logical fallacy is also called "Destroying the Exception" is illustrated by your original second premise, which stated simply that "Pigs are mammals", instead of "ONLY pigs are mammals". By leaving out the word "Only", you 'destroyed the exception'.

By the way, in my example if the premises are completely true, then the conclusion is also completely true. One could certainly try to disprove the premise, but otherwise the argument holds up under logical scrutiny.
 
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And a defense attorney will lie through his teeth and spin a web of illogical bullshit in order to get his client off, so don't consider them being logical.
A defense attorney may lie through his teeth (that is, making an argument that he does not truly believe -- call that 'Bullshit' if you want), but his bullshit is not necessarily illogical. His bullshit could be 100% logically sound.


Or, in point of fact, a defense attorney may not lie through his teeth and may construct a completely logical argument.

3DMaster departed from any analysis or attempt to reply to what I actually said, there, and went off on this absurd tangent about putative other behaviors lawyers might engage in...he completely failed to address, much less begin to refute, my point.

Yes, he's got the idea of logic confused with truth or fact or the scientific method or something...but you certainly couldn't find anyone who understands what logic is who would agree that ignoring "cold hard facts" or including them has anything to do with logical process. What he seems to mean is that it isn't sensible to ignore facts - and that's a different assertion altogether.
 
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And therefor it is completely illogical, making me completely right, and completely knowing what I'm talking about.

And you demonstrate that you have no clue what you're talking about yet again. Logic does not equal scientific provablity. Nothing about creationism is illogical, it's just impossible to prove or disprove using the scientific method.

Where creationism is concerned no 'cold hard facts' exist that prove or disprove it. So I don't know where you keep getting that from. You might consider it an unlikely scenario, but that's not the same thing.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical, and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over. Just because people refuse to accept this fact, doesn't mean it isn't true. The Earth is not a mere 10,000 years old, created exactly as the bible says it does, anyone with only a slight bit of knowledge of the physical world knows it's utterly ridiculous, and not a shred of logic is part of it.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism, and is why it's being allowed into MANY science classes (Intelligent Design is just a smoke screen for creationism) as an opposing theory to evolution, you should pay more attention to world news your corner of the world isn't the only corner out there...

And why do we even still use corner of the world when we've proven the world to be round (No corners.)
 
Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical

No, it's not. Neither is evolution. You can make a completely logical argument for either.

and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over.

That doesn't make it impossible to defend logically, sorry.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism...

In any event, the truth or falsity of it has nothing to do with whether a logical argument can be constructed in its favor.
 
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And you demonstrate that you have no clue what you're talking about yet again. Logic does not equal scientific provablity. Nothing about creationism is illogical, it's just impossible to prove or disprove using the scientific method.

Where creationism is concerned no 'cold hard facts' exist that prove or disprove it. So I don't know where you keep getting that from. You might consider it an unlikely scenario, but that's not the same thing.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical, and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over. Just because people refuse to accept this fact, doesn't mean it isn't true. The Earth is not a mere 10,000 years old, created exactly as the bible says it does, anyone with only a slight bit of knowledge of the physical world knows it's utterly ridiculous, and not a shred of logic is part of it.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism, and is why it's being allowed into MANY science classes (Intelligent Design is just a smoke screen for creationism) as an opposing theory to evolution, you should pay more attention to world news your corner of the world isn't the only corner out there...

And why do we even still use corner of the world when we've proven the world to be round (No corners.)

Creationism and Evolution don't even address the same issue, and are not in conflict with each other. (their supporters usually are, but that's another matter) One of them addresses where life came from, the other how it survives by changing. Neither is an all-encompassing ANSWER OF LIFE theory.

(Dennis, check your quote headings on post 424) [Fixed. - M']
 
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I never thought about truth existing outside of logic, but I guess that is actually pretty common sense once you think about it.
 
Actually, no.

There is a logical flaw in your reasoning *SNIP!*

You missed the point of the illustration, namely that you can put together a chain of logic with each premise being absolutely true, yet come to a completely false conclusion. By changing the second premise to "ONLY pigs are mammals", you change it to a false premise, thereby screwing up the point being made.
 
And you demonstrate that you have no clue what you're talking about yet again. Logic does not equal scientific provablity. Nothing about creationism is illogical, it's just impossible to prove or disprove using the scientific method.

Where creationism is concerned no 'cold hard facts' exist that prove or disprove it. So I don't know where you keep getting that from. You might consider it an unlikely scenario, but that's not the same thing.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical, and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over. Just because people refuse to accept this fact, doesn't mean it isn't true. The Earth is not a mere 10,000 years old, created exactly as the bible says it does, anyone with only a slight bit of knowledge of the physical world knows it's utterly ridiculous, and not a shred of logic is part of it.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism, and is why it's being allowed into MANY science classes (Intelligent Design is just a smoke screen for creationism) as an opposing theory to evolution, you should pay more attention to world news your corner of the world isn't the only corner out there...

And why do we even still use corner of the world when we've proven the world to be round (No corners.)

:guffaw:

Oh, that's a good one. It's YOU that should be keeping up with world news.

You'd find that every attempt of creationists to get it into the science classroom under the misnomer Intelligent Design (and they've only tried this in the good old US of A, it seems only in America can religious folks be this idiotic and indeed illogical) have FAILED.

Every time it goes in front of judge, the judge rules it is not science and it is tossed back to where it came from.

The only places where it is taught is in religious schools, and that's only because a judge has no jurisdiction there; and the students there are going to be in for a rude awakening if they ever try to get a job in the science field outside their religious circles.

And no, Intelligent Design is NOT JUST a smokescreen for Creationism. Creationists used REAL scientific Intelligent Design and hung that term on their idiocy to make it sound more authoritarian.

Real scientific ID, however, is cosmology, and has got nothing to do with biology. It's the observation that the universe, from the largest galactic clusters, to the smallest sub-atomic particle seems to be arranged the same way; the same number relations exist everywhere, and the universe thus seems to be just one big fractal function. Personally, I consider that more evidence AGAINST the universe being intelligently designed, but thing is, we kind of know how to do it. If some scientific theories are found to be correct (these indeed being just theories with no evidence to support it, unlike evolution that has more evidence to support it than just about any scientific theory out there) then we actually know how to kickstart, create a new universe in the lab; it then disappearing in an extra dimensional (the 11th dimension) space where all universes resign and it going its way like all universes having started similarly naturally or otherwise.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical

No, it's not. Neither is evolution. You can make a completely logical argument for either.

Sorry, no, you can't. The only way you can support creationism is to deny cold hard facts, and then still produce extreme ILLOGICAL constructs to try and make it work. So no, creationism in its very nature is illogical.

and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over.
That doesn't make it impossible to defend logically, sorry.
No, sorry, actually it does. Denying facts is illogical, since the only way to make creationism plausible is to deny about a billion facts in every discipline of science, it is not, and cannot ever be logical.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism...

In any event, the truth or falsity of it has nothing to do with whether a logical argument can be constructed in its favor.

It is, if the only way you can get something that resembles logic requires you to be illogical, it most certainly does.

Yeah, wrong. Creationism is illogical, and science has proven it wrong a 1,000 times over. Just because people refuse to accept this fact, doesn't mean it isn't true. The Earth is not a mere 10,000 years old, created exactly as the bible says it does, anyone with only a slight bit of knowledge of the physical world knows it's utterly ridiculous, and not a shred of logic is part of it.

Science has yet to completely prove evolution so it cannot completely disprove creationism, and is why it's being allowed into MANY science classes (Intelligent Design is just a smoke screen for creationism) as an opposing theory to evolution, you should pay more attention to world news your corner of the world isn't the only corner out there...

And why do we even still use corner of the world when we've proven the world to be round (No corners.)

Creationism and Evolution don't even address the same issue, and are not in conflict with each other. (their supporters usually are, but that's another matter) One of them addresses where life came from, the other how it survives by changing. Neither is an all-encompassing ANSWER OF LIFE theory.

(Dennis, check your quote headings on post 424) [Fixed. - M']

No, actually they do. Creationism isn't simply about where life came from, it's about how the Earth itself came to be, how old it is, and how life lived and died across the period since Earth's creationism.

Creationism, sadly, is not just: at the beginning of the universe, there was god.
 
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3D Master --

You're again confused with what it means to be "logically valid." Look at these examples:

Valid Argument #1: If one stipulates that there is a God, then one can say that God is the driving force behind what you call evolution.

To only way to make this agrument logically invalid is to prove there is no God. Have fun with that one.

Valid Argument #2: One could also stipulate that God does NOT exist, so evolution has no mystical "intelligent designer" controlling it. One way to make this argumant invalid is to prove that God DOES in fact exist. have fun with that one also.

Either argument can be made valid by changing the premise. Furthermore, neither premise can be logically invalidated, thus they are both logically valid arguments.

I'm not saying I believe in God or not (I'm not telling people my personal story here), I'm just laying down this logical argument. I'm like that defense attorney we mentioned -- I don't need to believe what I'm saying -- nor does it need to be the "truth" -- to make a valid logical argument.

Now, I'm sure our gracious moderator Mr.(?) M'Sharak wants this thread to get back on topic, so I'll get back to your assertion that Trekguide's explanation for the sychronization between the Mirror Universe and the 'normal' TOS universe is "illogical"...

Trekguide wrote this:
But the butterfly effect does not apply to the Mirror Universe, since we have seen characters in four different centuries who are identical genetically to characters in the Federation Universe. Rather than differences in the two timelines snowballing, becoming greater, we continue to see the same people being born to the same parents at the same time over four different centuries, while everything else in the universe is different.

....it is "caused" by the producers wanting to have the same actors playing roles in both universes, so they don't have to pay new actors, so I guess it's kind of silly to argue over the "logic" of Mirror Universe genetics.

Trekguide's final point on that seemed to be that we don't need to contrive a reason for the sychronization...it should be enough for the audience that the writers are telling them "the two Universes are synchronized somehow -- now just relax and enjoy the show". The is no "unseen ghostly force"; there is only the suspension of disbelief, which is required to enjoy many works of fiction - especially science fiction.

I agree with Trekguide on this. If the writers are telling us that the universes are sychronized, then that's enough for me.


I will disagree with Trekguide and agree with you, 3D Master on the following point though:

Trekguide wrote:
Even if you're saying that there are an infinite number of Mirror Universes, and an infinite number of Federation Universes, it is still unlikely that all the same people would be alive in two universes, let alone all end up as crew members on the same ship at the same time, and happen to be beaming up from the same planet at the same time.

You talked about this yourself, 3D Master. The word "infinite" has a specific meaning; an infinite number of universes is (literally) a humanly unimaginable number of universes. There is no such thing as the term "unlikely" in infinite universes. EVERYTHING that could possibly happen will in fact happen in one of the infinite universes out there. If there are infinite universes, then there is in fact one out there (in the Star Trek world) in which Kirk and the others are beaming up from the Halken planet at the exact same moment as their evil twins.

Like I said before, it's the "Infinite Monkey" idea, which states: "An infinite number of Monkeys tapping randomly on typewriters will eventually create the complete works of Shakespeare".

But that esoteric discussion of quantum physics and the ramifications of "infinity" is irrelevant here. I think it is very important to take into account the intent of the writers of Mirror Mirror. Trekguide is correct in saying that the writers had no intent on explaining why the Universes in that episode were synchronized -- and there's also no reason for the audience to worry about it either. We (the audience) are simply given to believe the premise that "these universes are synchronized" and let the rest of the episode logically follow that premise.

There is no need to explain why they are synchronized...it is enough to simply stipulate (for logical purposes) that they are synchronized.

There is no need to explain the "synchronization" for that episode to make logical sense.
 
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If this something temporal has its origin in the future, then there might have been a timeline where there was never a rift, and the Enterprise-C never came to the future. In fact, this is exactly how the episode plays it.

In fact, if you look things through down to the nitty gritty, it could even be, that there was a timeline with only one Yar.
...The same rift remained open the entire time, and the Enterprise-C (with Lt. Yar aboard) returned through the same rift to its same past timeline where it had disappeared from. So there were only two timelines depicted in that episode, and the rift connected both of them. And both timelines were identical up until the point where Lt. Yar went back in time on the Enterprise-C to create the new timeline.

Since we saw the rift in all timelines, you can't argue that there was a timeline where there was no rift.
I understand your point here, and the last sentence sums it up cogently. In both the "war" timeline and the "no war, double Yar" timeline, the existence of a rift is a known (indeed, essential) element of the past at the time of the ENT-C's battle.

The fact remains, however... and I don't want to be didactic, but I think it bears repeating... from the point of view not only of the viewers but also of the characters in past and future episodes, everyone proceeded smoothly from a pre-rift past to a war-free future. The only oddity in this progression of history is that at the time of the battle the ENT-C briefly disappeared into, and then returned from, a rift that took it into what is (again, from this timeline's POV, but it's a legitimate one) an alternate future.

Yes, in a hypothetical timeline where there never was a temporal rift, then there would be no Klingon war, Lt. Worf would join Starfleet, and Yar might be killed by a tar monster. But in this hypothetical timeline, nothing would ever create a temporal rift, so there would be no time-traveling Yar on the Enterprise-C, and she would never have a half-Romulan daughter. Obviously, this hypothetical no-rift timeline is not the one depicted in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or any other episode...
On the contrary, I'd argue that it isn't hypothetical but is the timeline depicted in every episode of TNG prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise." This is the no-war, single-Yar timeline.

Then (and I use the word with hesitation, not meaning to imply chronology) the rift comes into existence at the critical "past" moment, causing the branching into (on the one hand) the war timeline and (on the other hand) the no-war, double-Yar timeline.

Just like in "Star Trek Generations" when Picard used the Nexus to go back in time and create a NEW timeline where the Enterprise-D crew did NOT die, and the sun did NOT explode, and he did NOT enter the Nexus. ... These are all alternate timelines (as opposed to the "original" timeline), but we, as TV viewers, "care" about these timelines created by time travelers, while we don't "care" about the original timelines the time travelers came from, since the "Star Trek" series does not depict those "original" timelines from week to week.
You can call them "original" if you want, but the fact remains that in most cases (including these examples) they seal themselves off via time loops by preventing their own creation(s) and thus have, quite literally, no future. And, yeah, they also tend to occupy no more than a few minutes of screen time.

The timeline that viewers care about, though (which is hardly deserving of the dismissive quotes, as it's of crucial narrative importance!), and which moreover is experienced as an unbroken sequence of events by the characters (at least most of them -- e.g., everyone except Yar in the "YE" example, everyone except Picard in the "Generations" one), does in fact continue on into an ongoing future.

Yes! I'm proposing a Logical Pretzel™! You've brilliantly summed up in two words what I wasted thousands of words trying to explain.
Well, at least we can maintain a sense of humor about this. :lol:

There is no point at which the timeline incontrovertibly backs up and starts in a different direction, like what we're being told happens in this movie.
I think with that last sentence you just negated your own argument. Starting the timeline in a different direction is ALWAYS the point of changing the past. (At least in "Star Trek Generations," "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Endgame," and a half dozen other episodes -- excluding causality loops like "Times Arrow" and "Parallax.)
Okay, let me clarify: a different direction from what we the viewers (and, in story, the characters) have grown familiar with over a significant period of time... as opposed to alternatives that are seldom experienced for any longer than necessary to drive home the point "oh no, better avoid this!"

(If "Yesterday's Enterprise" had not "corrected" history but had instead continued on into a Klingon-war future, for instance, I suspect that rather than being a favorite episode of many fans it would be widely loathed.)

In the case of this movie, that "significant period of time" in question (that we've come to know, but which is now being sidelined) is in fact the entire history of on-screen Star Trek.

It's all subjective -- it's the point of view of the cameras showing us one timeline rather than an infinite number of equally real timelines. ...the difference is just the amount of time spent watching a series of events on our TVs
Subjective, yes, but not arbitrary. There are powerful narrative reasons for sticking with the timeline we "know," however many zig-zags it may have (when seen from the outside) due to various chronal incursions.

Regardless of which timeline one chooses to consider "original" given a certain interpretation of temporal mechanics (and in the case of this film, from what we know it does appear to be our familiar one), the choice to shift focus to an "alternative" presents a significant challenge to audience sympathies.

In terms of logic and causality, the new movie is not doing anything different from other time travel stories in "Star Trek." The only difference is our emotional reaction to it, since, for the first time in a time travel story, we care more about the timeline the time traveler is coming from than we do about the new timeline the time traveler is creating.
But that's exactly what it is doing differently: it's sticking with the new variant timeline rather than restoring or returning to the familiar one (or some very close variant thereof; e.g., two Yars). Are you suggesting that because the plot logic is otherwise familiar, people should be willing or able to set aside their emotional reaction to this difference? IMHO that's a pretty damn crucial difference.

Let me sum this up in the form of a question: why should we be quibbling over details of temporal logic, when what viewers "care about" is so much more important?
 
3D Master --

You're again confused with what it means to be "logically valid."

If one stipulates that there is a God, then one can say that God is the driving force behind what you call evolution.

To only way to make this agrument logically invalid is to prove there is no God. Have fun with that one.

One could also stipulate that God does NOT exist, so evolution has no mystical "intelligent designer" controlling it. One way to make this argumant invalid is to prove that God DOES in fact exist. have fun with that one also.

Either argument can be made valid by changing the premise. Furthermore, neither premise can be logically invalidated, thus they are both logically valid arguments.

I'm not saying I believe in God or not (I'm not telling people my personal story here), I'm just laying down this logical argument. I'm like that defense attorney we mentioned -- I don't need to believe what I'm saying -- nor does it need to be the "truth" -- to make a valid logical argument.

Yeah, sorry, no.

For something to be logical the only requirement is not that somewhere in there a tiny, vague semblance of logic is involved. You actually have to be logical from beginning to end.

You people seem to be under the impression that those simplified examples to teach someone the logic deduction are logical. They're not. Sorry, to disappoint you, but just because the REASONING from the point of the premises may be logical, that does NOT mean, the entire example is logical.

1. Lassie is a mammal.

2. Only pigs are mammals.

The moment you read premise 2, you should pretty much go, "What!?" You see, for premise number 2 to be logically valid, it would require you to deny massive, massive, massive amounts of facts and evidence. Which is an illogical thing to do, thus the entire thing would be illogical.

The same with creationism; for creationism to be valid, you have to deny massive amounts of facts and evidence, and NOT JUST biological ones. The result being, that it is illogical.

Now, I'm sure our gracious moderator Mr.(?) M'Sharak wants this thread to get back on topic, so I'll get back to your assertion that Trekguide's explanation for the sychronization between the Mirror Universe and the 'normal' TOS universe is "illogical"...

Trekguide wrote this:
But the butterfly effect does not apply to the Mirror Universe, since we have seen characters in four different centuries who are identical genetically to characters in the Federation Universe. Rather than differences in the two timelines snowballing, becoming greater, we continue to see the same people being born to the same parents at the same time over four different centuries, while everything else in the universe is different.

....it is "caused" by the producers wanting to have the same actors playing roles in both universes, so they don't have to pay new actors, so I guess it's kind of silly to argue over the "logic" of Mirror Universe genetics.
Trekguide's final point on that seemed to be that we don't need to contrive a reason for the sychronization...it should be enough for the audience that the writers are telling them "the two Universes are synchronized somehow -- now just relax and enjoy the show". The is no "unseen ghostly force"; there is only the suspension of disbelief, which is required to enjoy many works of fiction - especially science fiction.

I agree with Trekguide on this. If the writers are telling us that the universes are sychronized, then that's enough for me.
Now you're being illogical. You say you want to talk about about my claim that Trekguide's claim about synchronizing force is illogical; then talk about neither my claim, nor Trekguide's, but instead talk about suspension of disbelief, which in fact, was something I said myself, even BEFORE he did.
 
That the "Yesterday's Enterprise" war timeline must first exist in order for the "TNG TV Series" timeline to come into existence is an unrefutable conclusion based on the canonical events of the episode - as far as in-universe continuity is concerned. Of course, in the real world the TNG TV Series timeline comes first.
 
And "Yesterday's Enterprise" also established that Whoopi was some how a "trans-time-line" being who for one reason or another knew of the events in the other timeline.

If there are a million me's out there, it would be fun to check on how they are doing...
 
Yeah, sorry, no.

For something to be logical the only requirement is not that somewhere in there a tiny, vague semblance of logic is involved. You actually have to be logical from beginning to end.

You people seem to be under the impression that those simplified examples to teach someone the logic deduction are logical. They're not. Sorry, to disappoint you, but just because the REASONING from the point of the premises may be logical, that does NOT mean, the entire example is logical.

1. Lassie is a mammal.

2. Only pigs are mammals.

The moment you read premise 2, you should pretty much go, "What!?" You see, for premise number 2 to be logically valid, it would require you to deny massive, massive, massive amounts of facts and evidence. Which is an illogical thing to do, thus the entire thing would be illogical.

The same with creationism; for creationism to be valid, you have to deny massive amounts of facts and evidence, and NOT JUST biological ones. The result being, that it is illogical.

Right. You can disprove the second premise "Only Pigs are mammals". In my post I myself admitted that this bit of VALID LOGIC can be made invalid by disproving the premise...

...now disprove the premise in the agrument:
"God exists and God is the driving force behind evolution (i.e. 'intelligent design')".

Good luck.
(Again, I'm not saying this is my personal belief...what I believe to be true [or what in fact IS true] is not relevant to making a logical argument)

Going back to my original "Pig/Mammal" example, obviously you could invaidate the logic by invalidating the premise, BUT THAT'S THE POINT...the argument itself is a logically sound one. The person making the argument won the first battle by presenting a logical argument. The "opposing debater" must now resort to invaliding the premise to invalidate the argument, but the argument itself is still valid until then.

This can easily be done with "only pigs are mammals", but as seen in my "God controls evolution" argument, it is often very hard to invalidate a premise. And until that premise can be invalidated, the argument remains a logical one.

To understand the logical process (and the scientific process), one must take a step back from the "truths" of the world and view the world as an outside observer who has no pre-conceived knowledge of the real world.

Logic and the scientific process are based on "what if". We should look at the science of logic "with blinders on" -- that is, without worrying about the real world. A scientist who has preconceived notions of what "should be" may taint the outcome of his experiments. He must be able to prove his premises independently.

Let me change the "Pig" agrument a bit...

IF Lassie is a mammal
and IF only pigs are mammals
THEN Lassie is a mammal

That argument cannot be disputed in any way. It is 100% logically sound.

A logician or scientist MUST provide independent proof that invalidates "only pigs are mammals". If he does so, then fine -- the argument becomes invalid. But just the same, someone must provide independent proof of the non-existence of God to invalidate "intelligent design".

Now, I'm sure our gracious moderator Mr.(?) M'Sharak wants this thread to get back on topic, so I'll get back to your assertion that Trekguide's explanation for the sychronization between the Mirror Universe and the 'normal' TOS universe is "illogical"...

Trekguide wrote this:
But the butterfly effect does not apply to the Mirror Universe, since we have seen characters in four different centuries who are identical genetically to characters in the Federation Universe. Rather than differences in the two timelines snowballing, becoming greater, we continue to see the same people being born to the same parents at the same time over four different centuries, while everything else in the universe is different.

....it is "caused" by the producers wanting to have the same actors playing roles in both universes, so they don't have to pay new actors, so I guess it's kind of silly to argue over the "logic" of Mirror Universe genetics.
Trekguide's final point on that seemed to be that we don't need to contrive a reason for the sychronization...it should be enough for the audience that the writers are telling them "the two Universes are synchronized somehow -- now just relax and enjoy the show". The is no "unseen ghostly force"; there is only the suspension of disbelief, which is required to enjoy many works of fiction - especially science fiction.

I agree with Trekguide on this. If the writers are telling us that the universes are sychronized, then that's enough for me.
Now you're being illogical. You say you want to talk about about my claim that Trekguide's claim about synchronizing force is illogical; then talk about neither my claim, nor Trekguide's, but instead talk about suspension of disbelief, which in fact, was something I said myself, even BEFORE he did.
I may be wrong, but weren't you the one who argued that the "synchronized Mirror Universe" is possible because in an "Infinite Universe Multiverse", evrything that can possibly happen does in fact happen.

If that's what you said, I agree with you there.:techman:

However, I also agree with Trekguide that the only reason for the writers of 'Mirror Mirror' to create the sychronized MU is so they could tell the story they wanted to tell (i.e. use the same actors).

I'm saying that your very valid scientific reason that sychronized MU can in fact exist is not relevant to a discussion about enjoying 'Mirror Mirror' as a piece of fiction. I don't need the scientific explanation behind the existince of the syncronized MU to enjoy the story, no matter how valid that explanation may be.

Essentially, what you call "ghostly force" I call "suspension of disbelief". If you want to call suspension of disbelief a "ghostly force", then that's fine. However, if that is the case then the "ghostly force" is not illogical.
 
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You'd be wrong. Denying cold hard facts, is illogical. And a defense attorney will lie through his teeth and spin a web of illogical bullshit in order to get his client off, so don't consider them being logical.
Why pick just on defense attorneys here? What, prosecutors are all paragons of integrity who stick strictly to incontrovertible facts?... :rolleyes:

That said, I do agree with the larger proposition that is being disputed here, namely that creationism (or "intelligent design") cannot be considered consistent with logic, unless one starts with a set of premises that specifically excludes known facts and scientific principles. IOW, it's "logical" only in its own fictional reality.
 
Creationism and Evolution don't even address the same issue, and are not in conflict with each other. (their supporters usually are, but that's another matter) One of them addresses where life came from, the other how it survives by changing. Neither is an all-encompassing ANSWER OF LIFE theory.

No, actually they do. Creationism isn't simply about where life came from, it's about how the Earth itself came to be, how old it is, and how life lived and died across the period since Earth's creationism.

Creationism, sadly, is not just: at the beginning of the universe, there was god.

It's actually far more general than that. So general in fact, that it can't be refuted scientifically. Now, if you're talking about the Jewish timeline based off their half of the bible (which isn't actually supported by the bible itself, but rather a series of shakey assumptions) then yes, that timeline doesn't make much sense.

However, one could agrue (logically) for that rather unlikely time-table by saying that the world was created in its current state only a few thousand years ago. It's a completely unreasonable assumption, but it can be supported by strict, untestable logic.

Personally, I find the Bible far more intersting in what it doesn't say. Like how old the universe, or the Earth, or life is. As a history book, it's so vague with 'the beginning' that nothing it specifically says can be refuted. It doesn't say how long the Earth was around before the 6-day work session, or how many years (or millions of years) the whole naked man in paradise situation lasted before the big mistake.

Anyway, individual interpretations may be complete nonsense, but they're not completely devoid of some internal logic.

...

Man, what was the topic again?

Oh yeah...

Star Trek.

Uh...

...

Thou holiest canon hath been...forsaken?
 
Valid Argument #1: If one stipulates that there is a God, then one can say that God is the driving force behind what you call evolution.

To only way to make this agrument logically invalid is to prove there is no God. Have fun with that one.

Valid Argument #2: One could also stipulate that God does NOT exist, so evolution has no mystical "intelligent designer" controlling it. One way to make this argumant invalid is to prove that God DOES in fact exist. have fun with that one also.

Actually, I'm not sure either of these are valid. Proving there is no God is placing the burden of proof on the wrong side. I think the argument was that Creationism, more specifically a Young Earth or literal style of Creationism, is not logical, and this is true for many various reasons. I could get into all of them, but I think this thread was supposed to be about time travel. :)
 
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