Bailout the Automobile Industry ?

[John Picard]

UAW Leader Says No More Concessions

COLUMBUS, Ohio – Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger says workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.
Gettelfinger also on Saturday called on Congress to act quickly on a bailout plan for the auto industry. He says something needs to be done before President-elect Obama takes office in January.
Gettelfinger says it is unfair to call on workers to make more sacrifices, noting that previous cuts workers have agreed to have helped steady the automakers.

'Atta boy! Cut your nose off to spite your face and then WHINE that your jobs are going overseas

 

[DanCPA]

I am amazed they are holding firm in this manner
No doubt he assumes that the government will bail out the automakers, preserving their union contract

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

UAW head says that unions aren't to blame for Detroit's problems

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/16/uaw-head-says-that-unions-arent-to-blame-for-detroits-problems/

 

[Elmo Dukat]

UAW head says that unions aren't to blame for Detroit's problems

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/16/uaw-head-says-that-unions-arent-to-blame-for-detroits-problems/

Of course he'd say that

 

[the_wildcard]

Well it isn't all the fault of UAW, but they have a part in it. Because of the costs related to the workers, it adds additional costs to every American made vehicle, compared to foriegn automakers. I think I read somewhere a couple of years ago that for a typical American car, about $1500-2000 of the car's price is for the worker's benefits, ie. pay, health, etc. Compare this to japanese cars, with only about $500 I think for worker benefits.

The management and corporate side also has a huge part in it as well. They dictate to the designers what kind of car should be designed and in the pipeline. So often times they forsee the wrong kind of car and vision for the company.

Finally the designers also are at fault sometimes, although company politics and bad mismanagement can wreck even a good design.

Bailing out car companies will just extend the inevtible, which is American car companies putting out inferior products. Unless they do extensive restructuring, I do not see it suceeding. I think one of the biggest problems with American car companies is too many choices/variety which hurts efficiency. I mean, GM has so many brands and so does Chrysler, it's ridiciouls.

Chrysler also has Jeep and Dodge. So take 1/2 cars from Jeep and 1/2 trucks from Dodge and junk everything else.

GM has pontiac, cadalliac, oldsmobile, cheverlot, GMC, Saturn, haha it's crazy. They should take select cars from each line and axe everything else that's redundant. Trucks? Take1/2 designs from GMC and then axe the others. Sports cars? Take the corvette and something from the Pontiac line and axe everything else. Sedan? Take one from saturn OR Cheverlot (ie. Malibu), then axe everything else. Luxuary? Take one from Cadalliac then axe everything else.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

GM, Chrysler Win Union Concessions to Bolster Aid Bid

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSm249vkuvUY&refer=home

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, struggling for support in Congress for aid, won money-saving union agreements to delay contributions to medical funds and suspend a program that pays laid-off workers.

Today's move by the United Auto Workers gives GM, Ford and Chrysler a boost as their chief executive officers prepare to testify tomorrow and Dec. 5 on their requests for $34 billion in financial help. Lawmakers have pressed the companies to show how they will survive and repay any government loans.

``This should be interpreted as a meaningful and a painful sacrifice,'' said Harley Shaiken, a labor relations professor at the University of California at Berkeley. The jobs bank was ``something the union worked over decades to achieve.''

Aid proposals sent yesterday to Congress by the automakers are more than a third larger than the $25 billion request set aside by lawmakers last month, heightening pressure for action as a deepening auto slump quickens GM's rush toward a default.

While President-elect Barack Obama has said he favors an industry rescue, GM and Chrysler said they won't be operating by the time he takes office in January without the money now stalled by a deadlock in Congress. Democrats want to tap the $700 billion bank-bailout fund, and Republicans favor using Energy Department loans.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid believes Democrats may have to consider other options because he doesn't see enough support for the party's plan, his spokesman, Jim Manley, said today.

Obama's View

Obama said lawmakers were right to demand that the companies' CEOs provide a plan to sustain their businesses in order to get federal aid, and their latest efforts are ``a more serious set'' of proposals.

``When the Big Three automakers came before them three weeks ago, they were not offering a clear plan for viability over the long term,'' Obama said at a news conference in Chicago where he announced New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson as his choice to head the Commerce Department.

GM rose 5 cents, or 1 percent, to $4.90 at 4:01 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, while Ford gained 15 cents to $2.85...
.....

 

[John Picard]

They're ticked people call it what it is -- a bailout. They keep insisting it's a *loan*. No matter how you polish it, a turd is still a turd.

NO BAILOUT.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Promote mass transit; Cars are overrated.

 

[John Picard]

Promote mass transit; Cars are overrated.

Unfortunately, many of the US cities are not designed for mass transit. We could learn a thing (or five) from Europe and Asia (specifically, Hong Kong).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Promote mass transit; Cars are overrated.

Unfortunately, many of the US cities are not designed for mass transit.

I don't care. Promote it anyway.

 

[K'riq Sa]

yes bail outs are bad, but some are necessary. and as far as the auto bail out, we should only bail them out if "all" employees earning in excess of 2.5 million should have their annual pay and bonuses decreased to $1, all employees making 5,000,000 to 2.5 annually, should have their pay reduced to 1/4 until such time as the bailout debt has been repaid.

just one more of my many, and varied, factually unfounded opinions...




k'riq the uninvoicable

 

[John Picard]

yes bail outs are bad, but some are necessary. and as far as the auto bail out, we should only bail them out if "all" employees earning in excess of 2.5 million should have their annual pay and bonuses decreased to $1, all employees making 5,000,000 to 2.5 annually, should have their pay reduced to 1/4 until such time as the bailout debt has been repaid.

just one more of my many, and varied, factually unfounded opinions...




k'riq the uninvoicable

Why is $2.5M the *magic* number. Those at the top aren't the ones bleeding the company through their paychecks. *cough* Jobs Bank *cough*

 

[Plecostomus]

Let them die. Smaller more nimble companies will rise up and take their places. There used to be OTHER car manufacturing concerns besides The Trinity, they used government intervention, dirty-pool and outright illegality to force all others out of the market place.

Let them fail, let them close down and sell off the names and properties at auction.

Let the suppliers who foolishly threw their lots in with a single customer reap the whirlwind. I have. Companies around here got addicted to the idea that the ONLY source of contract-work was Kodak, Xerox and B&L.

The companies that survive are the ones that realize hey we CAN retool and make products for OTHER COMPANIES.


I'm a one person operation, I'm finding work to run on my machine no problem. I want work to do on my machine I get up and go out and find it. It's not hard to do. Understand: SALES IS NOT HARD you just have to go out and look.

...as I said I'm a one person operation. There is no excuse why a big company like oh for example WT&D two towns over can't get work. They have four full-time sales engineers who SHOULD be out looking for work instead they sit in the office bitching that Kodak and Xerox aren't outsourcing any new contracts.

This same logic applies to the automotive industry. Johnstown Rubber (which was all over CNN awhile back) failed because they locked themselves in with an automotive customer to the near exclusion of everything else. They had few if any other customers because it never occurred to them that the gravy-train might derail.

Let them fail. Bailing them out results in more of the same and we'll be right back where we started in five or six years. The suppliers who survive the collapse will be much smarter and more nimble and able to compete in the world marketplace.

I don't see it as a failure, I see it as an extinction of a class of company and the death of an economic model that is obsolete.

 

[John Picard]

Let them die. Smaller more nimble companies will rise up and take their places. There used to be OTHER car manufacturing concerns besides The Trinity, they used government intervention, dirty-pool and outright illegality to force all others out of the market place.

Let them fail, let them close down and sell off the names and properties at auction.

Let the suppliers who foolishly threw their lots in with a single customer reap the whirlwind. I have. Companies around here got addicted to the idea that the ONLY source of contract-work was Kodak, Xerox and B&L.

The companies that survive are the ones that realize hey we CAN retool and make products for OTHER COMPANIES.


I'm a one person operation, I'm finding work to run on my machine no problem. I want work to do on my machine I get up and go out and find it. It's not hard to do. Understand: SALES IS NOT HARD you just have to go out and look.

...as I said I'm a one person operation. There is no excuse why a big company like oh for example WT&D two towns over can't get work. They have four full-time sales engineers who SHOULD be out looking for work instead they sit in the office bitching that Kodak and Xerox aren't outsourcing any new contracts.

This same logic applies to the automotive industry. Johnstown Rubber (which was all over CNN awhile back) failed because they locked themselves in with an automotive customer to the near exclusion of everything else. They had few if any other customers because it never occurred to them that the gravy-train might derail.

Let them fail. Bailing them out results in more of the same and we'll be right back where we started in five or six years. The suppliers who survive the collapse will be much smarter and more nimble and able to compete in the world marketplace.

I don't see it as a failure, I see it as an extinction of a class of company and the death of an economic model that is obsolete.

QFT

Johnson Controls supplied the GM plant in OKC; however, the plant was NOT their sole customer. When the plant shut down, JC merely channeled energy into other avenues. Just one example of many which would be repeated across the country.

 

[K'riq Sa]

Let them die. Smaller more nimble companies will rise up and take their places. There used to be OTHER car manufacturing concerns besides The Trinity, they used government intervention, dirty-pool and outright illegality to force all others out of the market place.

Let them fail, let them close down and sell off the names and properties at auction.

Let the suppliers who foolishly threw their lots in with a single customer reap the whirlwind. I have. Companies around here got addicted to the idea that the ONLY source of contract-work was Kodak, Xerox and B&L.

The companies that survive are the ones that realize hey we CAN retool and make products for OTHER COMPANIES.


I'm a one person operation, I'm finding work to run on my machine no problem. I want work to do on my machine I get up and go out and find it. It's not hard to do. Understand: SALES IS NOT HARD you just have to go out and look.

...as I said I'm a one person operation. There is no excuse why a big company like oh for example WT&D two towns over can't get work. They have four full-time sales engineers who SHOULD be out looking for work instead they sit in the office bitching that Kodak and Xerox aren't outsourcing any new contracts.

This same logic applies to the automotive industry. Johnstown Rubber (which was all over CNN awhile back) failed because they locked themselves in with an automotive customer to the near exclusion of everything else. They had few if any other customers because it never occurred to them that the gravy-train might derail.

Let them fail. Bailing them out results in more of the same and we'll be right back where we started in five or six years. The suppliers who survive the collapse will be much smarter and more nimble and able to compete in the world marketplace.

I don't see it as a failure, I see it as an extinction of a class of company and the death of an economic model that is obsolete.

and to think, all that from a "union elf"...





k'riq the uninsoverignable

 

[Plecostomus]

When I was younger I asked my uncle why the stuff tagged "from Santa" was made in China and not the North Pole and he explained how the Elves joined a union and drove costs up so high that Santa had to send production where it was cheaper... and that's why everything is made in China. Interesting thing is he told me this back in the early 1980s.

Like I said before I only understood what he was trying to tell me later in life: Now I understand the immense damage unions have done to our economy.

 

[Hoser]

Bologna.
Without unions we'd still be working mad hours without overtime pay in dangerous factories. Contrary to the popular opinion, the 'market' doesn't set things right for workers, it's driven by the desire to get more money and profits. Unions fought for things like a living wage, health care for workers and other important things so that auto workers got a fair share of the profits from the products they were putting their hard work into.
People in China get paid squat to do what they do, because they don't have a voice. Do we really want the quality of life that China has?

 

[Plecostomus]

We are headed that way if people don't realize that some of the "union benefits" they take for granted are driving up costs to the point where we can't compete.

 

[Thurisaz]

They need to go into Chapter 11 and restructure. The government's role should be to lay on pressure to get them to actually make cars Americans want (i.e. GREEN/FUEL EFFICIENT). Chapter 11 also has the fortunate effect of breaking the union contracts. Car makers should even be free to relocate into the Southeast if that's what it takes to have them rebuild stronger...that's what all the foreign automakers are doing with THEIR US-based plants. States like Alabama and Mississippi are getting all the jobs, and why? Because they're non-union.

The Government doesn't know what people want, that's called market forces.
I'm tired of people bitching that the American companies "forced us to buy gas guzzlers". The GM plant in OKC converted to SUVs when gas was $1.10/gal and had trouble keeping up with demand when gas was at $1.90/gal. It wasn't until gas hit $2.50 that people were becoming "uncomfortable" with gas prices.
In case you haven't noticed, truck and SUV sales are "sluggish", because people have figured out it's OK to drive something economical. I've driven economical cars for years while watching people talk about their 160hp 6-cylinder blah blah blah. Why do people need all of that power?
The Big 3 has noticed the shift to more economical cars. The problem is the COST of converting factories. Europe has some fantastic vehicles, but the problem is their safety standards are different from those in the US, so Ford and GM can't bring those neat toys they sell in Europe over here.

Man!! Those were the days. I had an 88 Monte SS with a 355 small block, double hump vette heads, 4 barrel Holly with single stage 50 shot nitrous. I use to run high 12's, and use it as a daily driver around town. Now I have a four banger DSM turbo awd. It is a lot better on gas.

 

[hellsgate]

Who cares? No other industry gets to scream like a two year old being dragged out of a Toys-R-Us. You screw-up, you bite the bullet & take it on the chin.

These guys had EONS to get with the freakin' program, study details about how they'd run or be maintained. Capitol Hill knew laws needed to be changed to accept these new non-commercial vehicles, factories had to convert their facilities to accept & then build the compact extended-range electric cars that are now a regular site in Europe. They had EONS to realize these changes were coming. Now they scream they've screwed the pooch & they've seen the light / error of their ways.

Too Bad. The strong & the smart survive, adapt or die.