Denobulan, Vulcan and human sexuality; bonding

[ria 75]

This is a rather lengthy but interesting recap of what discussion has been started in the
"get to know you thread". (None of the debate is left out.)

HopefulRomantic is right, it deserves its own theme thread for those who rightfully do not think they'll find that in the aforenamed thread and won't peer in. I have allowed myself some minor editing. (Sorted the personal out from the debating.)
You could say this is Borgboy's thread.

My favorite [Enterprise] character is T'Pol, she is the outsider on the ship who sees things differently, and her emotional journey of growing so much as a person makes her fascinating. Jolene Blaylock is such a great actress she really steals all the scenes she's in , for me anyways.
Phlox I find annoying and wish the ship had a different doctor, preferably another woman since the show has so many more male main charactrers than female. Other ST alien races work as a comment on humans, with Vulcans representing logic, Bajorans represent spirituality, Klingons represent agression, etc, but Phlox's race lacks that quality to make them stand out, I can't even remember what their race is called. His race had the potential to represent free sexuality given their nonmoganamous relationships, but despite Phlox discussing his family he comes off as asexual imo.
Trip is the cutest guy on the show, although Archer and Reed are also pretty yummy, just to end my intro on a totally frivilous note. ( Nothing against Mayweather, he has a great body, but I find his personality to be too dull to take much intrest in him. Maybe he's just too young for me.)

Having watched thru the end of ENT S2, they do say that [Denobulan] males are more inhibited than the females, which explains why Phlox's wife was like an alley cat in heat when she visited while Phlox barely shows signs of having a libido, ignoring advances of a cutie like Cutler who was WAY too good for him, and rejecting T'Pol during her false Pon Farr ( which ethically was the right thing to do since her judgement was impaired, but still he didn't even seem tempted the way Reed was. You knew Reed wouldn't go there - well probably not anyways, but you could still tell he wanted to, while Phlox didn't seem remotely interested.) , and seeming to not really connect with his visiting wife while she was trying to seduce Trip ( not that I blame her. Okay enough, I 've talked about Phlox's lack of sexuality WAY too much tonight lol.

If Reed didn't have the whole "chain of command" protocol hangup, he'd totally jump on it.

As far as other races reflecting on humanity, I think the Denobulans represent the ability to see good in all things. They are also the aspect of responsibility in science that humanity seems to always lack (re:AUGMENTS!)

If Reed didn't have the whole "chain of command" protocol hangup, he'd totally jump on it.

Ha! Who wouldn't?? I'm a straight girl and I might have even been convinced to try.

My favorite character is T'Pol, [...] and her emotional journey of growing so much as a person makes her fascinating.

It makes me sad that it ends up being all attributed to her disease, and once she's cured, she seems to lose her emotions, perhaps even her feelings. At least she successfully puts a lid on them - which can be seen as a little selfish, because she was not alone having feelings. She doesn't seem to take the advice from the old T'Pol from the alternate timeline. At least there's a good arc about her and humans in general.

Phlox's race lacks that quality to make them stand out. His race had the potential to represent free sexuality given their nonmoganamous relationships, but despite Phlox discussing his family he comes off as asexual imo.

Non-monogamous, that would be polygamous. "Trigamous", in this case. Although with the added ramifications of each wife's husbands, one should coin a new term. (Since polygamy means multiple wives, not husbands. Polyandry is not a very frequent notion... *sigh* ) "Multigamous"?? "Exponential polygamy" ?

I pretty much agree with ex-Pensive: Denobulans represent tolerance, openness (of mind), (scientific) curiosity.

Trip is the cutest guy on the show, although Archer and Reed are also pretty yummy, just to end my intro on a totally frivolous note. (Nothing against Mayweather, he has a great body, but I find his personality to be too dull to take much intrest in him. Maybe he's just too young for me.)

Right there with you. We do watch shows for their cast, in great part. Reed is my personal favourite. You know, it's always the most sexually repressed people who unleash themselves the most, given an excuse.

Having watched thru the end of ENT S2, they do say that [Denobulan] males are more inhibited than the females, which explains why Phlox's wife was like an alley cat in heat when she visited while Phlox barely shows signs of having a libido, ignoring advances of a cutie like Cutler who was WAY too good for him, and rejecting T'Pol during her false Pon Farr (which ethicly was the right thing to do since her judgement was impaired, but still he didn't even seem tempted the way Reed was. You knew Reed wouldn't go there - well probably not anyways, but you could still tell he wanted to, while Phlox didn't seem remotely interested.)

If memory serves, after 2 viewings I have concluded that it remains ambiguous whether Phlox serviced T'Pol or not - viewing it as being in a medical capacity: less awkward, in T'Pol's point of view, than mating with a crew member I guess. Or maybe he just confirms that he's bound by doctor-patient confidentiality about her (false) Pon Farr since Vulcans treat that like a state secret.

What to say in general about Enterprise?
Is it just me or is it the most intimist Star Trek series? It's quite character-oriented, and this is why I like it. A lot of characters get proper developments over 2 or 3 seasons already.

Ria 75. You are right the Doctors answer to T-Pol's query if she did anything was ambigious.

However, I believe that T-Pol was Chaste when she mated with Trip as she Bonded with him.

If she had mated with Phlox she would have bonded with him and could not have Bonded with Trip.

Or at least that is the way I see it.

I am not an authority on the matter, but isn't the bonding the result of repeated contact? (I don't mean just sex but also psychological intimacy.)

Anyway, that 'bonding' is the Vulcan equivalent of infatuation. I believe that there are chemical changes in humans, too, when we are in love. Maybe not neurological, though, (or not that much) because we're not telepaths.

Which suggests that T'Pol wouldn't have a bonding with Dr Phlox because he only helped her (in person or not) with her physiological needs. Or am I completely missing the point that Pon Farr is essentially a neurological imbalance? Still, I don't want to believe that a Vulcan bonding would surge from a single intercourse.

ria75, I have never been too clear on Bonding. Don't believe it was adequately explained on the series of if it was I missed it.

My belief (and it is only that, a belief) is that as T-Pol said, she and Trip Mated. I think that is different from simple Sex or a one night stand.

I believe that for a vulcan it is a comitment of some sort.

with Phlox it would have been Sex but could have been considered a mating by T-Pol hence a Bond. But as I remember the episode there was not indication that Phlox and T-Pol had Sex and that Plox answer to T-Pol was typical Phlox, a joke.

Frankly do not know so am in the dark and just groping around.

My reply:
True, Vulcans usually commit to each other when they bond. And they usually bond with their 1st partner. They get married at their first Pon Farr. So the question of multiple partners (chronologically) and one-night stands is a bit fuzzy. We can't separate the sex, the bonding and the marriage.

Personally, I don't want to believe that a Vulcan considers any isolated quickie as bonding, Pon Farr or no Pon Farr.

 

[ria 75]

Damn, I should have use the word 'mating' in the title rather than 'sexuality'.
It would be more fitting.
Couldn't edit the title.

 

[Trippy]

I'm no authority on all things Vulcan as others will surely claim to be , but from what I understand, Trip and T'Pol 'bonded' from their close, personal contact (via Neuropressure) and their sexual encounter (one night!). I would hazard a guess that it was because they, unconsciously wanted to bond, that it happened. The re-launch ENT novels expand on this, if you're interested.

I don't think T'Pol and Phlox 'did the deed' (EWWWWWW!), but I dislike that episode so much, I've only seen it once.

 

[pookha]

Originally Posted by ex-Pensive
If Reed didn't have the whole "chain of command" protocol hangup, he'd totally jump on it.

As far as other races reflecting on humanity, I think the Denobulans represent the ability to see good in all things. They are also the aspect of responsibility in science that humanity seems to always lack (re:AUGMENTS!)

phlox is one of my favorite characters and i would say he had great empathy .
not just to other people but the universe in general.

he wanted to learn about everything.

and i dont think he "serviced" tpol in bounty.
for one thing as he told her it wouldnt have worked since her real problem was that she was going through faux pon far due to whatever infected her.

once he cured that it took care of the faux pon farr.

as for the bond we may get a hint in breaking the ice that vulcan couples were expected to spend a year together.

so it looks like it takes time together and more then one encounter to happen.
i think tles says something along those lines in home also.

 

[angie]

Personally, I don't want to believe that a Vulcan considers any isolated quickie as bonding, Pon Farr or no Pon Farr.

This has always been my take as well

 

[commodore64]

so it looks like it takes time together and more then one encounter to happen.
i think tles says something along those lines in home also.

Right, and we never saw it on screen, thus it didn't happen. Like Angie and the originator of the post, this has always bothered me. And Kirk and Spock touched lots, thus I don't believe neuropressure could set off a bond either. It was never explained in the series, and thus a quandary.

Not fact or canon, but a possibility -- perhaps the bio-engineered Elizabeth (T'Pol and Trip's engineered child) could've created a bond that was destroyed when the child died. That would certainly explain why in TATV, T'Pol and Trip had no further contact and sounded as if the bond had been long gone.

Again, great question Ria and no good answer.

 

[Captain X]

Except that they had the bond before the child was even created, and since it existed, and you agree that it would take more than a one-night stand, I guess you agree that they had more than just that one-night stand, right?

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the NP played a factor in it, as well as the feelings they admitted, on screen, to having for each other.

Spock and Kirk may have touched a lot, but unless they were doing NP and held romantic feelings for each other, I guess they wouldn't have had more than just a "bond" of friendship between them. Unless of course you're a slasher.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Right, and we never saw it on screen, thus it didn't happen.

We never saw the ship's laundry either, but I'll go ahead and assume the uniforms got washed when they got dirty. There isn't enough time in 26 hours of television--actually, 42 minutes x 26--to literally show a year in the life of Enterprise. There will be things that happen that aren't shown, but can logically be inferred.

As for speculating about possible explanations for what wasn't clearly laid out onscreen, that's part of the fun! Trippy's theory is as valid as yours, commie, or anyone else's, as long as it works for them.

Sure, it's too bad that TPTB didn't give us more explaino about how the bond between Trip and T'Pol was formed. But we did get a few intriguing references in the show, such as T'Les's line in "Home," and T'Pol's own enigmatic explanation in "Bound" which seemed to imply that bonding in the 22nd century might be regarded as a myth by some Vulcans. That makes sense, considering the horrible reputation melding had. Perhaps the "marriage bond" mind-meld we see in TOS in "Amok Time" doesn't exist in Enterprise's time, and the bond is expected to form during that first year of togetherness after Vulcans marry.

 

[commodore64]

We never saw the ship's laundry either, but I'll go ahead and assume the uniforms got washed when they got dirty.

Well, I'll say this -- there's a difference between plot explanations that happen on screen and stuff you just assume happened. For example, there's probably a sanitation crew, but it's not critical to the plot. I'm sure there's a place for Porthos to use the restroom, though that's never been shown.

The bond was, as it was part of the actual story line, and thus critical to the plot. Other things critical to the plot they had to show -- the bridge and who manned each important station, what the main characters' ranks were, etc. That's the difference.

As for speculating about possible explanations for what wasn't clearly laid out onscreen, that's part of the fun! Trippy's theory is as valid as yours, commie, or anyone else's, as long as it works for them.

I guess my point was: hypothesis, including mine, does not fact make. I think the writers should have addressed this and so believe all the "ideas" (and that's just what they are) are just as crummy as mine are. Guessing what might be the answer is might be "fun," but it's just a guess.

The original post had a great question that can't unfortunately be answered because the series is off the air.

 

[gblews]

as for the bond we may get a hint in breaking the ice that vulcan couples were expected to spend a year together.

so it looks like it takes time together and more then one encounter to happen.
i think tles says something along those lines in home also.

I would agree with the year of living together being significant in some way to Vulcan couples, as it is mentioned in two episodes, "Ice" and "Home". Unfortunately, there is no on screen explanation as to why its significant.

But I don't think T'Les said that in Home. With respect to bonding, I recall T'Les stating only one thing, when she commented to T'Pol that Trip was the reason she would not bond with Kos. As has been discussed here many many times, that statement opens up all kinds of questions about the Vulcan marriage or mating bond.

T'Les also told Trip in Home, that after a time, her and Mr. T'Les developed a closeness or affection, can't remember the word, but I don't think it was bond (although I could be wrong).

 

[ria 75]

I agree with Captain X. I don't remember what they said about the bond in the episode where Trip resists Orions, but I'd say it is a neurochemical change that comes from long-term emotional (for lack of a better word about Vulcan attachment) and physical closeness. By physical, I mean mainly sexual, but the repeated neuropressure, especially between man and woman, is intimate physical contact too. It may not be enough, but it's part of it. The neuropressure sessions initiated intimacy at all levels.

At any rate, it cannot be compared with 2 straight men brushing shoulders all the time, for all the mutual life saving that they do.

By the way, is there proof somewhere that Spock is straight? Or is he just asexual (for all I know). Pelt me if the answer is blatant somewhere in canon

On any subject, some things are purposefully left for the viewer to decide - especially if there's no time for it!

I would agree with the year of living together being significant in some way to Vulcan couples, as it is mentioned in two episodes, "Ice" and "Home". Unfortunately, there is no on screen explanation as to why its significant.

I addition to validating the marriage officially, we can reasonably infer that it is meant to initiate a bond (neurochemical or not) strong enough to withstand, for instance, separations over great distance and time. The kind of bond that makes Tuvok never question his marriage in Voyager.
It's also meant to promote simple attachment between 2 people who, upon marrying, often hardly knew each other. Biologists would call it impregnation.

To end on a funny note: there was an allusion in the caption thread to the 7-year thing vs the once-a-month thing. It reminded me of a remark my mother made about The Lord of the Rings: if elf women live thousands of years, how often do they have their period?

 

[Trippy]

I agree with Captain X. I don't remember what they said about the bond in the episode where Trip resists Orions, but I'd say it is a neurochemical change that comes from long-term emotional (for lack of a better word about Vulcan attachment) and physical closeness. By physical, I mean mainly sexual, but the repeated neuropressure, especially between man and woman, is intimate physical contact too. It may not be enough, but it's part of it. The neuropressure sessions initiated intimacy at all levels.

That's pretty much my take on it too. And like I said earlier, this is expanded on in the novels (sadly, the only way ENT can carry on now) Basically, T'Pol theorizes that the bond they share is unique due to Trip's humaness, and therefore not the kind of bond that two vulcans would share.

I hope that's as clear as mud

 

[Captain X]

This is one of many issues that makes me wish the show had been better written. Nothing irks me quite the same way teasing the audience and then going back to the status quo does. Every series did it too, but the classic example is Picard/Crusher.

 

[Trippy]

but the classic example is Picard/Crusher.

The TNG novels fix that one up too!

 

[Captain X]

I wouldn't really know, as I've pretty much lost interest in the novels since the Mission Gamma series.

 

[pookha]

what tles said,,

I met my husband only once before we were joined. In time, we developed a deep connection to each other.

and tpol and trip spent a lot of time together several nights a week for a period of several months while in the expanse.
in very inimate setting were they were growing increasingly comfortable around each other.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

As for speculating about possible explanations for what wasn't clearly laid out onscreen, that's part of the fun! Trippy's theory is as valid as yours, commie, or anyone else's, as long as it works for them.

I guess my point was: hypothesis, including mine, does not fact make. I think the writers should have addressed this and so believe all the "ideas" (and that's just what they are) are just as crummy as mine are. Guessing what might be the answer is might be "fun," but it's just a guess.

Personally, I find all this speculation fascinating, and the ideas endlessly creative. That's the Phloxist in me--I'm a glass-half-full kinda gal. I like it when people present ideas that haven't occurred to me. It gives me insight into other points of view.

but the classic example is Picard/Crusher.

The TNG novels fix that one up too!

I believe we have Margaret Clark to thank for that...

 

[angie]

what tles said,,

I met my husband only once before we were joined. In time, we developed a deep connection to each other.

and tpol and trip spent a lot of time together several nights a week for a period of several months while in the expanse.
in very inimate setting were they were growing increasingly comfortable around each other.

I guess I missed these episodes........

 

[Trippy]

^I believe spookha is referring to the Neuropressure scenes from Season 3.

 

[commodore64]

^ We might be back to an old argument, Trippy. I believe Angie doesn't find them particularly "intimate" or "comfortable," and doesn't believe they built the foundation of a bond ... a Vulcan bond like the type Spock built when he was a child with T'Pring and what Trek lore is based on.

And neither do I.

HR, guess away if you're into it! I just get the feeling some people walk away and think: good, problem solved. I suppose it's their choice, but don't like when they treat it as "problem solved" in discussions with me on this board. It's like "interesting idea, but it's just that." I'm probably not explaining myself very well. Maybe it's more like: please don't tell me this is the solution; you think this and bully for you, but this is not *the* solution. Ya dig? I don't think you're guilty of that, by the way.