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North Pole ice completely vanishes this year?

no, on the contrary, in fact all of the science is in and global warming is science fact and well understood. A billion dollar exxon BS propaganda war
ensued, and thats all you are accidentally doing is playing footsoldier to them.

I happen to be an expert on the subject. please don't bore me.
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http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/06 ... denial.php

1. Global Warming doesn't exist. It's not happening.

We've all heard people claim as fact, without citing sources (or at least not credible ones), that "actually, the Earth is cooling" and such things.

Facts: Every year since 1917 has been warmer than 1917. Here's a report by NASA with this choice cut about record-breaking 2005: "Record warmth in 2005 is notable, because global temperature has not received any boost from a tropical El Niño this year."

2. Okay, it's happening, but humans are not causing it.

Here we have all the "sun getting brighter" and "natural warming cycle" theories. They are all real possibilities, but have been discarded by scientists who looked at the evidence and concluded that they were not the causes of the current warming of the thin atmosphere of our planet.

Facts: It's not the sun ("According to PMOD at the World Radiation Center there has been no increase in solar irradiance since at least 1978 when satellite observations began. This means that for the last thirty years, while the temperature has been rising fastest, the sun has shown no trend.") and it's not a natural cycle (if it was, it would be incredibly slower than what we're seeing now and it would still need a cause).

Here is some evidence of a scientific consensus:

"The scientific consensus is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). [...] In its most recent assessment, IPCC states unequivocally that the consensus of scientific opinion is that Earth's climate is being affected by human activities: 'Human activities ... are modifying the concentration of atmospheric constituents ... that absorb or scatter radiant energy. ... [M]ost of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations' IPCC is not alone in its conclusions. In recent years, all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements. [...]

That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position. [...]

This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.

3. Okay, humans are causing it, but there's nothing we can do about it, we can't go back to the stone age, it would ruin our economy, it's worse to act than not to act, etc.

Or in the words of the new anti-Kyoto Canadian "Environment" Minister Rona Ambrose: "that would mean that today we would have to take every train, plane and automobile off the streets of Canada. That is not realistic."

What do these people think Global Warming will do to the planetary economy? We can't look into the future and know exactly what the consequences would be, but what we can deduct doesn't sound good: Potentially millions of eco-refugees, disruptions in food supplies, heat waves and weird climate phenomenons, stronger hurricanes, flooded coastal areas, the possible cascading of species extinction (remember, animals can't turn on the air conditioning - when their environment changes rapidly, they can't artificially "adapt" like humans, and if the bottom of the food chain is affected, it will have effects on everything above), major changes in oceans, etc. Acting now is clearly the cheaper and better choice and countries that took important steps in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, like Germany, are hardly "ruined". Some big businesses like insurance companies understand that, but a much broader consensus on action is needed among the powerful corporate players of the world.

The Apollo Alliance has been pushing a plan to create cleaner infrastructures and systems and eventually eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels. The Chicago Climate Exchange has been doing really good things too. Many others, like the folks at WorldChanging, have been putting together a vision of a "bright green future", working on solutions that would actually stimulate the creation of a better tomorow and improve things on most if not all levels of society. There are lots of good ideas and solutions available right now. We've waited long enough. Lets act.

4. Okay, it is possible with technology, efficiency/conservation and smart planning to do something about it, but it's going to hurt the bottom line of "dirty" corporations.

Well, a pusher is never happy when an addict is trying to get rid of him, and the end of slavery hurt the bottom line of slave owners. But very few people will say that these aren't the right things to do.

Frankly, we can live with a few big companies making less money, especially considering the alternative. The stone age didn't end because there was no stones left, and we didn't keep blacksmiths in business forever after they weren't needed anymore. But even the Exxons and Shells of this world have a choice: they have huge resources and could - if they wanted to - become pioneers in clean technology and profitably survive the transition our society now has to go through. We're not talking about investing 1% of their benefits in clean technologies and doing massive PR campaigns; we're talking about a real commitment, something proportional to their scale. But lets not wait for them to move... If they don't, others will fill that role.

Conclusion: Global Warming is real and we have to deal with it. We can use this crisis as an opportunity to improve our society. The faster, the better.
 
Its all a bunch of cr@p made up by the eco-terrorist nut-jobs. If we were heating up and the oceans were gonna rise and apparently we have almost no ice in the North Pole now...Dont you think that we would have seen sea level go up by atleast a foot or two by now?
Bunch O Cr@p...
Well, do a couple experiments for us and tell us how it turns out...

Experiment 1:
Put a bunch of ice cubes in a glass (so it is about half full of ice) and then fill the glass with water until it is almost to the top. Tell us how much water overflows the edges of the glass when the ice melts.

That should give you an idea how much the sea ice will effect sea level.​
Experiment 2:
Alternatively, fill a glass with water to about the same level as before, and put a strainer of ice above the glass and let the ice melt. Tell us how much water overflows the edges of the glass.

This should give you an idea of the effect of ice in places like Antarctica and Greenland melting.​
The loss of permanent sea ice in the Arctic Ocean is a result of increased water temperatures. People often fail to see how increases of a few degrees in water temperature can make a difference (seeing as air temperature can change quite drastically in the course of hours). But consider an interesting thought experiment...

How much energy would it take to raise the temperature of all the oceans of the world one degree? What amount of energy would we be talking about?

Go with simple numbers like the oceans covering two-thirds of the face of the planet, and consider them to only be about 10 meters deep everywhere (as the top 10 meters are where the changes are visible today). You can figure out how much water that is and how much heat would be needed to increase the temperature by one degree.

Global Warming isn't about air temperature... it is about water temperature. But because people assume it is air temperature, people will continue to believe nothing is happening.

We've past the point of no return... we will be effected by this no matter what we do at this point. As to what degree... given the opinions displayed here, it should be quite severe.

I'm pretty much resigned to spending the rest of my life saying I told you so on this issue. Oh well.

I would point out that if your assumptions can be debunked with little more than kitchen table science, then it may be a good idea to reconsider where you are getting these ideas from.

Here's a comparison of May 30, 1990 to May 30 2008 Arctic Ice Concentrations.

What I see is considerably more ice at the North Pole now, than in 1990. Something may have been warming the arctic more in the 90's than now. I wonder if that something is a string of previously unknown volcanoes that erupted under the arctic ice in 1999.
Great tool... but I would have suggested looking at end of summer ice conditions as those show what amount of permanent ice remains.

09/09/1979-09/09/2008 (29 years apart)​
 
Global Warming isn't about air temperature... it is about water temperature. But because people assume it is air temperature, people will continue to believe nothing is happening.

That argument always confuses me. I really begin to wonder if people making it have ever defrosted something in the refrigerator or put ice in a cold soda before.
 
Global Warming isn't about air temperature... it is about water temperature. But because people assume it is air temperature, people will continue to believe nothing is happening.

That argument always confuses me. I really begin to wonder if people making it have ever defrosted something in the refrigerator or put ice in a cold soda before.

Obviously, since refrigerators aren't being affected by global warming, you're buying into a whole bunch of alarmist cr@p. I'm not sure what cratpee has to do with anything, but that's apparently what it is.

J.
 
The IPPC said that a rise in temperature beyond 2° would be the tipping point. The problem with their reports is that due to political pressure what the IPCC presented was the most conservative prediction. Since actual measurements so far have constantly come out hotter than what was predicted, we're indeed in for the end of all things.
 
Its all a bunch of cr@p made up by the eco-terrorist nut-jobs. If we were heating up and the oceans were gonna rise and apparently we have almost no ice in the North Pole now...Dont you think that we would have seen sea level go up by atleast a foot or two by now?

no, this is a geometrically progressing upwardly mobile bell curve whos current actual rise is only right now in the inches. That simple fact should be enough to panic you if you had any sense.
sea rise of two inches in one century means next century at least its
going to be a whole lot more than that. You can bicker all you like about how much and how soon, but the facts are if you think we should leave anything to the infants now being born or that they deserve to live natural life spans, we must act now; or they are doomed to never see their grandchildren.

Get over your egotism and propaganda warfare BS, and see sense.



Experiment 1:
Put a bunch of ice cubes in a glass (so it is about half full of ice) and then fill the glass with water until it is almost to the top. Tell us how much water overflows the edges of the glass when the ice melts.

That should give you an idea how much the sea ice will effect sea level.​

No, you are seeming to forget that for this experiment to be accurate you have to fill the glass to full, and then drop an ice cube in.



Experiment 2:
Alternatively, fill a glass with water to about the same level as before, and put a strainer of ice above the glass and let the ice melt. Tell us how much water overflows the edges of the glass.

This should give you an idea of the effect of ice in places like Antarctica and Greenland melting.​
The loss of permanent sea ice in the Arctic Ocean is a result of increased water temperatures. People often fail to see how increases of a few degrees in water temperature can make a difference (seeing as air temperature can change quite drastically in the course of hours). But consider an interesting thought experiment...

That is partially true, but its actually an air/water thermal system.

How much energy would it take to raise the temperature of all the oceans of the world one degree? What amount of energy would we be talking about?

Better question; how much ozone do we have to go missing till that happens?




Global Warming isn't about air temperature... it is about water temperature. But because people assume it is air temperature, people will continue to believe nothing is happening.
This is correct essentially because the ocean has an ameliorating or calming effect on the whole system. The air is easier to heat than the ocean by orders of magnitude.


We've past the point of no return... we will be effected by this no matter what we do at this point. As to what degree... given the opinions displayed here, it should be quite severe.

It is reasonable to assume that by the year 2100 we could see between 20 and 90 feet of sea rise, and the outside conservative estimates only prolong those dire warnings by a century or two at the very most.

I'm pretty much resigned to spending the rest of my life saying I told you so on this issue. Oh well.

I wish this was the only thing i had to do that about. For instance, I knew in 2003 there were no wmd in iraq; and anybody who knew how to and bothered to use google could have figured that lie out in about 10 hours or so.


I would point out that if your assumptions can be debunked with little more than kitchen table science, then it may be a good idea to reconsider where you are getting these ideas from.

Propaganda warfare sponsored by exxon oil and repeated as part of the deal
of the total EVIL R US package of the republican party.
 
Experiment 1:
Put a bunch of ice cubes in a glass (so it is about half full of ice) and then fill the glass with water until it is almost to the top. Tell us how much water overflows the edges of the glass when the ice melts.

That should give you an idea how much the sea ice will effect sea level.​

No, you are seeming to forget that for this experiment to be accurate you have to fill the glass to full, and then drop an ice cube in.
Well, ask the hard question... where has the north pole ice been sitting all this time?

I was under the impression that it was already sitting in the Arctic Ocean... so if that ice melts, no real change in sea level. The ice sheets on Antarctica and Greenland represent new water that would increase the levels because all that ice has been sitting out of the water all this time.

I wish this was the only thing i had to do that about. For instance, I knew in 2003 there were no wmd in iraq; and anybody who knew how to and bothered to use google could have figured that lie out in about 10 hours or so.
Lots of us knew, unfortunately more of us didn't want to know.

There was a study done shortly after the final word on Iraq's WMD came in that showed that a majority of the people who got their news from Fox and CBS still believe that Iraq had WMD and that Iraq was involved in 9/11.

The facts of life are that people generally only care about the news that is convenient and interesting. If it requires thinking, people just don't care. It is nice that you took the time, but until more people follow that example, the truth is on the losing end of this battle. The truth isn't easy so people accept lies instead.

The same is true in this very forum... you can offer people insights into science, but unless you can condense years of study into 50 words or less, they'd just as soon believe what is most convenient. Even when I point people in the right direction and tell them of the amazing things they'll come to understand, the fact that it isn't easy seems to be the biggest stumbling block.

Again, you seem to be willing to do some research and that is great. But sadly, that is far from the norm. :(
 
Glacier ice melting is what is supposed to raise sea levels. Everyone should know Arctic sea ice melting is not going to raise sea levels but Greenland's glaciers melting will.

On PBS radio a few days ago they had a story on this and they predicted a sea level rise in 100 years of 6-8 feet. Apparently it takes a lot of time to warm the ice to melting and for the water to make it to the sea.

I'm not sure I buy this, I remarked before I've heard global temperatures have actually gone down the past ten years since the end of the last sun spot cycle.
 
I watched that Stargate movie, Continuum. They went up and shot footage right on the sea ice and it still looked pretty damn frosty up there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Continuum

Look where it says production. They were 200 miles north of Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. It isn't exactly a sauna up there. I didn't see any people wearing Hawaiian shirts and shorts.
 
I watched that Stargate movie, Continuum. They went up and shot footage right on the sea ice and it still looked pretty damn frosty up there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Continuum

Look where it says production. They were 200 miles north of Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. It isn't exactly a sauna up there. I didn't see any people wearing Hawaiian shirts and shorts.

Okay, that is it, scientists!
You can go home!
It is still cold there.
:rolleyes:
 
I wouldn't blame people for discussing climate change away. Global Warming is and will be uncomprehensible, unthinkable. We have no scale yet to assess what we have done to the planet. Our science is just starting to grasp it.
 
ok skipped the thread so this has probably already been mentioned but I just read somewhere that if all of Greenlands ice melts the global sea level will rise by 6 metres. Just looking at this site here if it rises just 6 metres we're screwed.
The melting of the Greenland ice sheet isn't a 'maybe/possible' scenario but an 'it's going to happen' scenario.
It's only a matter of time before it's gone, maybe just 5 years.

WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT IT?

Interesting links:

Here
Here
Here
Here
 
ok skipped the thread so this has probably already been mentioned but I just read somewhere that if all of Greenlands ice melts the global sea level will rise by 6 metres. Just looking at this site here if it rises just 6 metres we're screwed.
The melting of the Greenland ice sheet isn't a 'maybe/possible' scenario but an 'it's going to happen' scenario.
It's only a matter of time before it's gone, maybe just 5 years.

WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT IT?

Interesting links:

Here
Here
Here
Here

Here is the story I mentioned earlier in the thread. 2 1/2 to 6 feet in 100 years.

Here is a key quote from the story: "Tad Pfeffer at the University of Colorado decided to do the study after hearing colleagues predict high rates of sea level rise, without backing the predictions with any solid science."
 
I find his estimate completely bonkers. I can see with my own two eyes how Greenland's ice is being effected year upon year. It's getting smaller and smaller and smaller, time is a luxury we do not have.
 
time is a luxury we do not have.
Why? If sea level were to rise 1m per century don't you think people could adapt to that? I certainly do.

---------------

Tell that to the sixteen and a half million people who live in the Netherlands and besides, the speed of melting is increasing, i'd say we've got maybe 25 years till total melting takes place. Just look at the speed of melting in just TEN years!

On a sort of seperate note: Linky.
 
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