Non-Relaunch DS9?

[Rush Limborg]

I can't help but wonder why there hasn't been any DS9 books since Hollow Men that were NOT part of the relaunch series.

Has the demand just shot down, and people just want to read what happens after the show finale?

 

[Trent Roman]

Funny you should say that. I'm reading these books at the moment called Terok Nor, and they feature a rather DS9-ish cast and setting...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Idoliside]

I think the emphasis on all the series now is in re-launch. I think the only place we will see in-series books will be in anthologies. I mean we have succesful re-launches of Enterprise, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. I think the only series which really gets book in-series is TOS.

 

[Christopher]

^^That's not quite true. There's no ban on doing books set during the respective series. It's just that it's more limiting to tell a story during the run of a series, due to the need to fit it within continuity, so they tend to come along only when there's a really strong story to be told, as in the case of the String Theory trilogy or Hollow Men.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Thanks, Chris! Glad to hear it!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Has the demand just shot down, and people just want to read what happens after the show finale?

There is a finite number of available slots, you know.

For any number of reasons, sales for the DS9 Relaunch titles were much higher than novels set in the series. Naturally, Pocket Books will continue to publish titles which have the best chance of getting good numbers. But there's nothing to stop novels and short stories set within (and before) the years of the series itself, and there's been some of those. "Hollow Men", "Prophecy and Change" and "Tales of the Dominion War" all did will enough.

It crosses my mind that one fresh source of strong, within-canonical-series manuscript proposals would be from talented first-time writers following the official Simon & Schuster Guidelines.

 

[Rush Limborg]

It crosses my mind that one fresh source of strong, within-canonical-series manuscript proposals would be from talented first-time writers following the official Simon & Schuster Guidelines.

Yesssss... yessssssssss....

(Fiddles through notebook, finds DS9-book notes, peers at notes intently, and shakes a fist in triumph.)

Therin... thanks for the tip!

 

[Wowbagger]

It crosses my mind that one fresh source of strong, within-canonical-series manuscript proposals would be from talented first-time writers following the official Simon & Schuster Guidelines.

Have any of those been published recently?

It's just... they have those guidelines (which are now horribly out of date, but that's another story), which implies that S&S does consider novel proposals from first-timers, but I've never heard of anything getting in off the S&S first-timer slush pile. So that source of in-canon stories, as you term it, would be really no source at all.

My knowledge of ST fic is far from encyclopedic, however, so I could be wrong.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've never heard of anything getting in off the S&S first-timer slush pile.

Well, Pocket doesn't really have a "slush pile" (like in the old days) because everyone is required to have a professional agent submit their work.

Marco has been getting brand new authors from somewhere. They haven't all been SNW graduates. Who knows, maybe Leanna Morrow and Olivia Woods impressed him with a first-time submission each, then they worked with him on a new story?

I would think that if a first timer came good with a great novel set in the series-years of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT, then they'd have a chance to finish that story, or develop and pitch a new one.

So that source of in-canon stories, as you term it, would be really no source at all.

You reckon no one has a hope of satisfying Marco with a first-time story and seeing it through to publication? Granted, there's a lot of competition for publication slots, but of course it's a source.

 

[Cicero]

I've never heard of anything getting in off the S&S first-timer slush pile.

Well, Pocket doesn't really have a "slush pile" (like in the old days) because everyone is required to have a professional agent submit their work.

That's not quite true, as I understand it. Previously, we've been told that an author with a history of fiction publication would be dealt with differently from a first-timer. The purpose of requiring an agent is, IIRC, to filter the aspirant pool, which is accomplished just as well by out-of-house editors as by agents.

 

[Wowbagger]

I've never heard of anything getting in off the S&S first-timer slush pile.

Well, Pocket doesn't really have a "slush pile" (like in the old days) because everyone is required to have a professional agent submit their work.

My understanding is that anything that isn't solicited by a publisher ends up on a slush pile. It's a smaller pile than it might otherwise be, because of the agent filtering, but it's still a slush pile. I think.

Marco has been getting brand new authors from somewhere. They haven't all been SNW graduates. Who knows, maybe Leanna Morrow and Olivia Woods impressed him with a first-time submission each, then they worked with him on a new story?

Good point. Both of them did sort of come out of nowhere. If you're right, then... well, you'd be right about the whole thing.

So that source of in-canon stories, as you term it, would be really no source at all.

You reckon no one has a hope of satisfying Marco with a first-time story and seeing it through to publication? Granted, there's a lot of competition for publication slots, but of course it's a source.

If, as I have believed, no author has ever satisfied Marco or his recent predecessors with a first-time story and seen it through to publication, then I think that to interpret that as first-timers having no chance would be the most reasonable conclusion. At best, first-timers would be a potential or untapped source, and submitting to the S&S slush pile would be a very silly and counterproductive thing to do for anyone without a few other writing credits under the belt.

If, on the other hand, there have been first-timer successes, like Woods and Morrow, then my conclusion would be wrong. Now I'm even more curious than I was before.

 

[Christopher]

If, as I have believed, no author has ever satisfied Marco or his recent predecessors with a first-time story and seen it through to publication, then I think that to interpret that as first-timers having no chance would be the most reasonable conclusion.

Not at all. Just because something hasn't happened recently doesn't mean it can't happen. America never had a nonwhite presidential nominee before this year, but Barack Obama still won the nomination.

At best, first-timers would be a potential or untapped source, and submitting to the S&S slush pile would be a very silly and counterproductive thing to do for anyone without a few other writing credits under the belt.

You're overlooking something crucial. Just because a writer hasn't had their initial proposal published doesn't mean the writer couldn't impress the editors enough to get invited to do a different project. This has already been explained earlier in the thread. Pitching isn't about selling a specific story so much as it's about selling the author -- convincing the editors that your work is worth taking a look at. That's a routine part of how you break into publishing. Hardly anybody ever sells their first pitch. But if your pitches show enough promise, then an editor may take an interest in you, encourage you to continue pitching, suggest ways to improve your material. Editors are always on the lookout for new talent they can cultivate.

So I'm sorry, but it's just absurd to say that it's counterproductive to try pitching to an editor unless you have previous credits -- because you'll almost certainly never get any publishing credits unless you go through the process of pitches and rejections first. It's tantamount to saying that it's silly to go to med school because you won't cure cancer in your first week. The pitching process is writing school -- it's how you develop your craft, how you learn what doesn't work and what does, how you get the practice and experience you need to get to the point where you can sell.

 

[KRAD]

When John Ordover invited me to pitch a Trek novel to him in 1999, I sent him a proposal for a TOS movie-era novel.

He rejected it, then said to me, "Hey, in the DS9 finale, they made Worf an ambassador. Wanna write his first mission?"

Said TOS movie-era proposal has yet to see the light of day. I honestly don't know if I even still have a copy of the fershlugginer thing....

 

[Therin of Andor]

My understanding is that anything that isn't solicited by a publisher ends up on a slush pile. It's a smaller pile than it might otherwise be, because of the agent filtering, but it's still a slush pile.

Which is why I said "like in the old days". In earlier times, of course, Pocket had a very large pile of unsolicited manuscripts, and most of those were unusable, although there were a few gems, some of which eventually got noticed and made it through. ST fanzines of the day actually encouraged ST fans to "have a go" so they could become the next Marshak & Culbreath, Jean Lorrah, Melinda Snodgrass or Della Van Hise.

Today, it's different. Take me for example. When I give my agent something non-ST I've worked up, she gets on the phone to the publisher she believes is the best choice to take that particular manuscript or proposal. It's almost always an editor she knows from some previous connection, or at least she has a phone conversation with them to say the piece can be on its way if they are interested. The publishers know her reputation, and (usually) trust her judgment.

But, with Pocket being the only the only game in town who can accept ST novel proposals, that does change the nature of her usual submission process. Being so far away from NY, we are at a disadvantage, since my agent doesn't have any history with any current Pocket editors (I'm assuming). However, she does know the local Simon & Schuster Aust. people very well, so probably some kind of connection would be made, rather than my agent sending off my ST proposal and sample chapters as if it was totally unsolicited.

She also would be my "first editor". Perhaps even sending me back to revise my proposal and sample chapters before she agreed to send it to Pocket - because my work has to keep her reputation (as an agent who can recognise talent and make the right connections between product and market) continuing to look good.

So even agents' cold submissions to a publisher can end up being "expected" rather than being lumped with totally unsolicited slush. The idea of having an agent is to make every effort to have your manuscript be more noticable (for good reasons) than the competition. But to do it in a professional way that also doesn't anger the editors to whom you're trying to sell.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Hey, Therin, mind if I ask something?

You sound as if you've had experience in Trek novels. So, that would make you...who?

 

[Therin of Andor]

You sound as if you've had experience in Trek novels. So, that would make you...who?

Ian McLean, famous Star Trek nobody.

Just an avid fan of the novels, who was once president of a Sydney-based ST fan club (80s). Have interviewed a few ST people in my day, written a few ST comics lettercol letters (coming soon to a DVD-ROM, I hear), provided research for a few authors, illustrators and ST action figure sculptors, made a long-distance cameo in "Starship Exeter: The Savage Empire". Hang around the right people for a while and some of the magic rubs off, I guess.

If you're lucky they'll name a park after you. (Thanks Heather!)

 

[Wowbagger]

So I'm sorry, but it's just absurd to say that it's counterproductive to try pitching to an editor unless you have previous credits -- because you'll almost certainly never get any publishing credits unless you go through the process of pitches and rejections first. It's tantamount to saying that it's silly to go to med school because you won't cure cancer in your first week. The pitching process is writing school -- it's how you develop your craft, how you learn what doesn't work and what does, how you get the practice and experience you need to get to the point where you can sell.

No, no, I agree with that - an aspiring writer had better be pitching, or he/she is never going to get published.

My point was that pitching to the Star Trek book line, specifically, seems silly and counterproductive, given the well-established stable of authors, the intense competition for publication slots, the fact that there is no other submission market once you've been rejected, and the simple fact that new writers have not had very much (if any) success at Pocket in quite a long time. The odds against an acceptance--any acceptance, whether by publishing the original pitch or offering another project--are overwhelmingly (if not 100%) against you. It would be a much better expenditure of an unpublished writer's time to pitch some non-ST stories to other venues, rack up some other writing credits by pitching and submitting over and over again, and then, after establishing oneself as an author, give ST a shot. All this assumes, of course, that you can even get a literary agent to represent you with no previous writing credits, which is, so I've been told, just about as unlikely.

At least, that was how it was put to me a couple of years ago at the S&S boards (Jim Johnson also suggested SNW at the time). I found it very reasonable advice at the time.

And so the question becomes, again: has anyone who is a first-time writer, no credits to his/her name, successfully seen any of his/her work published in the Star Trek Pocket line in recent history after making an unsolicited submission to Pocket via a literary agent? More relevantly to the OP, have any of these works been within-series stories? If not, then, clearly, the "first-time author" track remains only a potential source for Trek manuscripts set within a series.

Therin, did you know you have an STEU page? And I see what you're saying about the slush pile. You're right, of course; I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Therin, did you know you have an STEU page?

Yep. It was a shock to me one day when I found it. (I've been into it a few times since to correct errors and make additions.) I was innocently Googling other sites' references to Andorians, and there it was!

It was an even bigger shock to see I was on IMDb. Someone entered all the fan actors from "Starship Exeter: The Savage Empire" not long after it premiered and, for fun, I went looking at some Australian TV shows I'd been on - and was able to connect roles as "Himself" to the thrin appearance. After all those years of using IMDb, it never occurred to me that I was there!

I have several other TV credits I can't enter because I don't recall an exact date, or the show itself has no listing. IMDb now requires a considerable amount of verifiable information about old shows, and their current availability, to be added to the Db.

 

[Christopher]

My point was that pitching to the Star Trek book line, specifically, seems silly and counterproductive, given the well-established stable of authors, the intense competition for publication slots, the fact that there is no other submission market once you've been rejected, and the simple fact that new writers have not had very much (if any) success at Pocket in quite a long time.

What are you talking about? Una McCormack, J. Noah Kym, Britta Dennison, Olivia Woods -- a number of new writers have made their debuts in the DS9 series alone. Heck, I'd only had two stories published in Analog when I was hired to write for SCE -- I was essentially a "new writer" only five years ago.

The odds against an acceptance--any acceptance, whether by publishing the original pitch or offering another project--are overwhelmingly (if not 100%) against you. It would be a much better expenditure of an unpublished writer's time to pitch some non-ST stories to other venues, rack up some other writing credits by pitching and submitting over and over again, and then, after establishing oneself as an author, give ST a shot.

The latter statement is true, but the former is not.

All this assumes, of course, that you can even get a literary agent to represent you with no previous writing credits, which is, so I've been told, just about as unlikely.

Agents only deal in novel-length fiction, since the pay rates for short fiction are too low to be worth their while. You don't need an agent to sell short fiction to magazines. And SF/fantasy authors have it easier than most others in that regard, since there are hardly any markets left for short fiction that isn't SF/fantasy or mystery-themed.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

they have those guidelines (which are now horribly out of date, but that's another story)...

Let's stay on that for a moment. Apart from the items in the FAQ pertaining to Strange New Worlds, which are irrelevent to the normal submission process, in what way exactly are the guidelines out of date?