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Tuvix: Was it the right decision?

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I must admit I don't get a lot of the opinions here. I thought it was one of the series' more powerful episodes, and more than a story of Tuvix it was a story of what it means to be a captain. This story hearkened back to Jim Kirk, and making a decision that was what the captain believed was the right thing to do - and the captain alone making the moral sacrifice in order to protect the crew. In another episode, Janeway told Chakotay, "Then I am alone". I believe this was further exploration of that idea.

I am not ready to call any murders here. Tuvix was the combination of two living beings into one. Then by the same process, split into two living beings again. If anything it was a recreation of a technical accident, but one might call the invention of the transporter murder as well, since it basically deconstructs and reconstructs people who could arguably be called "not the same person", since those living systems were temporarily suspended from their place in the universe. Or more to the point, the transporter made this accident happen, and undid it too.

I believe calling it murder is not only alarmist and sensational, but presupposes one's own moral superiority over the issue itself - Tuvix had individual rights, and so do Tuvok and Neelix, who I'm sorry, were not dead, but melded.

And how is ending a mind meld any different? Is it "murder"? It is the melding and disassociating of two minds, arguably the individual personality.

Further I say the show succeeded because here we are still debating the issue.

I agree with her decision. The haunting pleas of Tuvix on the bridge were quite disturbing. I do not fault the crew - they chose to agree with the captain. Had any one of them disagreed we most certainly would have heard about it.

Further, Captain Janeway took her cue from Kes. As mentioned previously, the closest thing to family Neelix had. It was Kes, closely bonded to both men, who ultimately could not accept Tuvix as an individual whose interests superceded those two men he was blended from.

Tuvix showed a remarkable difference from Neelix and Tuvok in that he was a coward who put his own interests above that of the ship, and indeed, the two men who were being sacrificed that he may live. Who was he to "murder" those two innocent men?

All I'm saying is to be so ready to come to the defense of Tuvix, but to write off the two crewmen as "dead", is hardly humane or enlightened either, and could just as easily be argued as murder.

Either way could put the captain into the seat of the accused. Both acting and not acting was a guilty choice. She protected her crew from that guilt and shouldered it herself, making what she determined was the most humane choice, weathering those haunting cries and standing firm. I think this is precisely the kind of story Trek should do more of.
 
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^ I hadn't thought of Tuvix precisely as cowardly, but now that you mention it, he was given the knowledge that two of his crewmates could be saved by his actions. Yes it was the ultimate sacrifice, but we have seen Starfleet officers do that countless times and admired them for it.

By refusing to make that sacrifice, Tuvix was showing himself to be the kind of Starfleet officer who would not sacrifice his life for his crewmates. Neelix and Tuvok, on the other hand (and just about every other regular Star Trek character over the years), had shown themselves to be the kind of men who would. That had to figure into Janeway's decision as well didn't it? That it would ultimately be better for the ship and the people aboard her to have two stalwart crew members who have already proven their courage, rather than one who demonstrated that he would put himself first?
 
If the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, then the Vidiians were right, and the next time that the doctor runs out of spare parts (Tuvix was part Kes!) those two should be the first two in line to volunteer as organ donors. I mean, if you could save 15 crewmen from certain death just by butchering Neelix for his gory nick-nacks, well it's a call the Captain should be able to make. If she is allowed to order the deaths of her crew. So how many crew men would she be allowed open up to keep more important crewmen viable before there's a mutiny? 10? 20? How long until it's wrong?

Her authority over Tuvix was tenuous. He wasn't Starfleet. And as seen in the case of Tom and Kes separately, so called crew is allowed to leave if they feel like it, and if they aren't allowed to leave, well then it's slavery so that means Janeway can do with her property whatever the hell she likes.

Janeway decided to let him live. Only Kes bawling from heart break changed her mind. Which means something else might have changed Janeways mind again. If only Tuvix had ignored his boner for Kes in the month he was alive and found his own new lover from the crew who would could have showed up and tearfully demanded that Janeway not execute her lover. I still find it unconscionable that Kes dumped Neelix a couple months (half a season.) after all this crap went down. Imagine if Tuvix's hypothetical lover had been pregnant?

Tom and kathy probably loved being Salamandars and resented being dragged back to their first principles. The doctors programming was rewritten to make him easier to live with and we saw how he spazzed out when he figured that out in the one with that dead girl they wiped from his memory. Lindsay ballard was modified unsuccessfully to be human. Seven of nine was humanized against her will to begin with because Janeway insisted she didn't know what was good for herself. No one forced Tuvok to get his memories back after Riddles despite it being effectually a "death of personality" which was easily reversed... If only he had had a lover to bawl to the captain, but they were in contact with the Alpha Quadrant that the wife might have had a word to say on the matter of the death of her husbands personality. Neelix talking him around with out mentioning Tuvix was cute, but Janeway had precedence to force the issue if the writers this week hadn't decided to make her a soft cock. Meanwhile they were ALL probably grateful to let Harry go in Favourite Son when he claimed to be an alien, that Janeway couldn't have ordered all his alien dna surgically exercised... I suppose the wrong DeLanney sister could have argued weepily to Janeway that she was almost ready to make her big move if Janeway would please just alter Harry's brain patterns so that he didn't want to leave Voyager? They were so desperate for warm bodies if they had caught Seska, what was to stop them from Hypnotizing Seska into believing she was the Bajorian she had claimed to be while duping the crew in being her mules if they prefer one personality over another to be in their company?

Janeway is unstable and can't be trusted not to have an irregular moral compass which isn't spinning hard enough to give her a little lift.
 
I made a Tuvix thread too, several months ago. I was shocked by the episode. I say no, Janeway didn't make the right decision, mainly because of the cold, barbaric way in which she executed Tuvix.

It's easy to criticize Janeway when it's about Neelix (no remaining relatives) and Tuvok (who, being Vulcans, his long-distance family would accept her decision to leave him dead as logical), but...

Imagine if the combined person was Naomi and Tom?

How would Janeway explain the decision to leave "Tomoni" as one person, especially when Janeway has to associate with Samantha Wildman and a pregnant Belanna Torres every day of their long journey home, and eventually have to face Naomi's Dad, and Tom's parents?
 
It only became Janeway's decision originally because after a month Tuvix wanted to live, in the beginning he wasn't too fussed. Would NaTomi value hir own life so little how quickly that the burden would again fall onto Janeway? What if Sam and B'Elanna were in a disagreement about what to do? I mean B'Elanna could be happy enough with her husbands new condition, enjoy the boobies and extra sexual organ and Sam could be ape shit about B'Elanna being a pedophile.
 
All I'm saying is to be so ready to come to the defense of Tuvix, but to write off the two crewmen as "dead", is hardly humane or enlightened either, and could just as easily be argued as murder.

Exactly!

Either way could put the captain into the seat of the accused. Both acting and not acting was a guilty choice. She protected her crew from that guilt and shouldered it herself, making what she determined was the most humane choice, weathering those haunting cries and standing firm. I think this is precisely the kind of story Trek should do more of.

It's too bad the Janeway-bashers don't have enough subtlety to understand what was done here. Oh well...
 
Thanks, Kimc. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks she was right! .
"Tomoni." :lol:
I know! :D that's exactly what I thought! Or B'Ellotay 7 Doc 7 Harryn... Guy Gardener, you open a large can o' worms suitable for Academy Ethics class! Now that's a series premise! Debate the actions of Starfleet in the field... But I don't feel Janeway was bargaining or assigning values, weighing her decision like a butcher weighs meat. Anyway, she may have decided either way .. which itself is part of the story, that technology forces these decisions on us. Choosing inaction is also a moral choice and does not free one from accountability,..though many in tthe world might believe their hands are clean due to their influence being indirect rather than direct....
 
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All I'm saying is to be so ready to come to the defense of Tuvix, but to write off the two crewmen as "dead", is hardly humane or enlightened either, and could just as easily be argued as murder.

Exactly!

Either way could put the captain into the seat of the accused. Both acting and not acting was a guilty choice. She protected her crew from that guilt and shouldered it herself, making what she determined was the most humane choice, weathering those haunting cries and standing firm. I think this is precisely the kind of story Trek should do more of.

It's too bad the Janeway-bashers don't have enough subtlety to understand what was done here. Oh well...

Well, I'm no Janeway basher and, even if I was, there's no reason to be condescending to people having a different opinion on her actions in this controversial episode. For the record, I liked Janeway quite a bit. I thought Kate Mulgrew was outstanding as Trek's first featured woman captain.

That said, I had some problems with her decision. It was a very tough dilemma she was in. Do I blame her for deciding to destroy Tuvix? No, I don't. I just don't think she made the right decision. If it was me, I wouldn't have killed him.
 
Either way could put the captain into the seat of the accused. Both acting and not acting was a guilty choice. She protected her crew from that guilt and shouldered it herself, making what she determined was the most humane choice, weathering those haunting cries and standing firm. I think this is precisely the kind of story Trek should do more of.

It's too bad the Janeway-bashers don't have enough subtlety to understand what was done here. Oh well...
:wtf: You know what that statement implies, don't you?
 
I wonder what it would have been like if the procedure wasn't -perfect- and that Tuvok retained some Talaxian characteristics, and Neelix kept some Vulcan characteristics too.

It would have made the future stories more interesting if Neelix gained the power to do mind melds, for example.
 
It's too bad the Janeway-bashers don't have enough subtlety to understand what was done here. Oh well...

Really, that isn't very nice! You know sound like a bit of a snob. I love Janeway, and I think Mulgrew did a great job in the episode--but I hate Tuvix, it's one of the most morally repugnant episodes ever, but...I don't have to watch it when I watch my dvds, so I just ignore it.

There was no "did she act, or not act--what's right?" about it--Neelix and Tuvok died in a transporter accident. This episode is just poorly conceived and poorly written. It's silly to start calling folks unenlightened for not getting a plot like this--it's a fictional universe based on a lot technobabble that can't exist. Fiction can be good, fiction can be bad--Tuvix is pretty bad.
 
You know, people are always ragging on VOY for not being more like BSG. I wonder, if this had been an episode of DS9 would people be more apt to rave rather than rant about the shades of gray?
 
Thanks, Kimc. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks she was right! .
"Tomoni." :lol:
I know! :D that's exactly what I thought! Or B'Ellotay 7 Doc 7 Harryn... Guy Gardener, you open a large can o' worms suitable for Academy Ethics class! Now that's a series premise! Debate the actions of Starfleet in the field... But I don't feel Janeway was bargaining or assigning values, weighing her decision like a butcher weighs meat. Anyway, she may have decided either way .. which itself is part of the story, that technology forces these decisions on us. Choosing inaction is also a moral choice and does not free one from accountability,..though many in tthe world might believe their hands are clean due to their influence being indirect rather than direct....

your'e not the only one, I thought she made the right decision too
 
I'm fully willing to admit that there was no right decision and Janeway was a monster no matter which choice she made.

She killed Tuvok's Space herpies. A life form THOUSANDS of years old and totally sentient but she murdered it rather than... It's been a while? But she killed it to save Tuvok right? or the doctor did when it was trying to infect her despite havng an incubation period of sometimes a century? Tuvok helped Kes kick the Warlord out of her body, less cut and dry since Kes had the strength to do itself which is survival of the fittest rather than the intervention of someone pompous enough to claim that they're "morally superior" (I can't believe Picard had the balls to say that to someone 5 billion years older than he was.). What about all the new personalities inside the crew during the Killing game... Do you think they would have killed Janeway if they had any inkling about what sort of battle of life and death they were involved in that they were all about to be summarily executed by Kathy despite being perfectly happy killing Nazis in WWII France or drinking themselves haggard on Q'noS? Hells, it's possible they were backed up and autosaved, but will they ever be let out to play again? You'd have to wonder if the memories implanted into B'Elanna about that genocide matter from remember had had too much impact on her happiness or efficiency that the memories would have been exercised and erased... Was the coma they forced B'Lanna into at all Dangerous if not time wasting when she went on that boat trip to Klingon hell? How long would Janeway have let her stay under if the dream didn't quickly have a positive out come? A week, a month, a year?

Janeway casually kills people all the time to save her crew. Meanwhile she wouldn't kill Q to get them home.

As for acquiring Vulcan characteristics... Janeway thought all that was bosh in the case of Lon Suder, that whatever change had occurred, even a biomechanical change in the case of this bloke being less violently deranged was irrelevant, that it only mattered who he was an not what he had become. A complete reversal on the seventh season episode about that psychotic murderer with the brain imbalance the doctor fixed up in time for his execution.

It's Space-Sohie's choice over and over again... Though sometimes Janeway seems like Space-Solomon that she's cutting babies in half to solve her moral pickles.
 
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I just don't see it as choosing inaction, that's all. Someone made a good point above that the doc shouldn't have even tried to fix it if he was going to refuse to do it! It's just a poorly written story--it's a misuse of the "science" and then to have the 2 guys pop up in uniform afterwards is silly. I might have accepted Janeway's decision if she had researched the 2 cultures, of if she had a conversation with Tuvix about how he thought the men would feel--she didn't try to talk to him, it was just "I want to live" and "no". Something was needed at the end in which Tuvok and Neelix reacted to what was done.
Poorly conceived, poorly written, leaves a bad taste in my mouth--an awful episode.
 
You know, people are always ragging on VOY for not being more like BSG. I wonder, if this had been an episode of DS9 would people be more apt to rave rather than rant about the shades of gray?

It was an episode of DS9. The Kurzon component Of Jadzia escaped during a rap ritual and decided to live in Odo permanantly.
 
Well, I'm no Janeway basher and, even if I was, there's no reason to be condescending to people having a different opinion on her actions in this controversial episode.

You misunderstand me. Not agreeing with her decision is not the same as being a basher.

Really, that isn't very nice! You know sound like a bit of a snob.

You're not obligated to agree with everything said by everyone. However, calling another poster a snob is flaming. Don't do it. Consider this a friendly.
 
It's too bad the Janeway-bashers don't have enough subtlety to understand what was done here. Oh well...

O.K.--sorry, that I called you a snob.

But if calling you a snob is flaming, just what is calling people who don't like the episode too stupid to understand the subtlety? That's what you did, you called people unsubtle, and I'm pretty sure that you meant it as insult. Adding "Oh well..." was most definitely condescending and insulting. How is that different from what I wrote? I suppose that I was direct, and you were indirect--but are you going to defend your post based on semantics? In my opininon, you just flamed a whole bunch of people on the forums.
 
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Well, I'm no Janeway basher and, even if I was, there's no reason to be condescending to people having a different opinion on her actions in this controversial episode.

You misunderstand me. Not agreeing with her decision is not the same as being a basher.

Really, that isn't very nice! You know sound like a bit of a snob.

You're not obligated to agree with everything said by everyone. However, calling another poster a snob is flaming. Don't do it. Consider this a friendly.

calling a poster a snob is definately not nice....especialy when they're a mod :lol:
 
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