The Delta Flyers now covering DS9

[Crewman6]

Also wasn’t it always implied, if not outright stated, that Harry Kim was recently graduated when he joined Voyager as, you know, an ensign?

Yes. Since his character was a "straight out of the academy" ensign on his actual first assignment, he really should have known that.

I did like the few comparisons to the script they did throughout the episode, they should do that more often, especially when all the DS9 scripts are readily available online.

During the early days of the show, I'd often scream at the speaker when they would throw up their hands when confused about a line or a beat from one of the episodes that they could have easily checked if only they had known about the script archive.

At least know they finally seem to have discovered it. As recently as last season, Armin would occasionally whip out printed old scripts. But now Robbie thankfully has a handle on it.

Also, poor Chase, they weren’t a fan of her whimpering!

Neither was I. I friggin' hated that moment and I'm glad Terry (who never feels especially insightful, if we're being honest) called it out as being notably off-tone.

Then again, the writers were routinely on the wrong side of the line when it came to modulating the tone of Ferengi and Ferengi-adjacent bits.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Uh, there is nothing between cadet and ensign, you goon. Garrett said he skipped, "crewman." Which is an enlisted rank. Not something cadets transition into on the way to ensign-hood.

I've assumed that everyone on ship is a crewman, the same way everyone in the Air Force is an airman and everyone in the Navy is a seaman (even those are often more used to refer to the lower enlisted ranks).

 

[Poltargyst]

I've assumed that everyone on ship is a crewman, the same way everyone in the Air Force is an airman and everyone in the Navy is a seaman (even those are often more used to refer to the lower enlisted ranks).

But in TOS we see guys running around in those blue coverall outfits, we know they're called crewmen, and we know an Ensign outranks them. I always thought growing up that "crewman" was the lowest of the low rank on a starship.

 

[Crewman6]

I've assumed that everyone on ship is a crewman, the same way everyone in the Air Force is an airman and everyone in the Navy is a seaman (even those are often more used to refer to the lower enlisted ranks).

Is that true? Never heard that before.

And you might use the generic "crewmen" to refer to, say, a large collection of people.

But it's inaccurate to apply the term specifically to an officer. And garrett's assumption that there was a "crewman" rank in between cadet and ensign is just insane and utterly wrong.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Is that true? Never heard that before.

And you might use the generic "crewmen" to refer to, say, a large collection of people.

But it's inaccurate to apply the term specifically to an officer. And garrett's assumption that there was a "crewman" rank in between cadet and ensign is just insane and utterly wrong.

Inaccurate, according to context, but not inappropriate, in the same way an Army general could be described as a soldier.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Armin seems at least to be remembering episodes he reviews. My son was at the DS9 panel in Raleigh this weekend. Someone asked Terry what the best thing was about working with Klingons. Armin responded, "the peaty smell."

 

[Crewman6]

Wow, plenty of stupid on display in "Sacrifice of Angels" and I'm not even halfway through it.

Not sure where Armin got the idea that "Ferengi don't kill", but he seems to have made up that concept entirely in his own head. It's not remotely established in canon anywhere.

Sure, there are a few references to Ferengi preferring negotiation over war, but that's about it. There are plenty of times, mostly in TNG, to be fair, where Ferengi are perfectly happy to use deadly force or who are explicitly trying to kill people. Hell, in "Peak Performance," a Ferengi Daimon, played by Armin, is just about to obliterate the Enterprise capriciously for no reason whatsoever except for funsies.

And, on the subject of Armin, he also brings up (again!) his confusion over why Dax pilots the Defiant. As if a Starfleet officer couldn't possibly have more than one skill. The others always bring up her past host's lives, but that is beside the point. Robbie is often mock-annoyed at the fact that seemingly anyone can pilot a ship when that was character's sole area of expertise.

But it's perfectly acceptable that Dax would have more than adequate piloting skills even without having past lives. Hell, Geordi on TNG was a pilot and an engineer. And because TNG made that switch, they often found themselves in the position of having to have a non-speaking extra on the bridge instead of a regular character. DS9 wanted to avoid that, so they slotted Dax into the piloting position, which is perfectly acceptable canonically and also makes good use of the show's cast. (Armin routinely forgets that he's watching a TV show which occasionally has to slightly bend "real world logic" in order to do things, like, say actually feature the show's core cast. God forbid.)

Far more egregious, which they reasonably point out, is Bashir's presence on the bridge, or later Ezri's role on the bridge. I'm sure we'll hear about that when the time comes.

Armin also stupidly says the Founder should put a guard on Odo. Are they even paying attention? The Founders would never, ever do that. A few episodes ago, the Founder said Odo was literally more important than the entire Alpha Quadrant. The Founders consider solids to be lesser life forms, they would never insult one of their own by putting him under guard.

And finally Garrett pipes in with the idiot comment of the week, saying it's a "plot hole" that Rom can tell a Bajoran phaser from a Federation phaser. Hell, I can tell the difference between the two! Does he honestly not think the sound effects department is actually doing their jobs? Do they really think all phasers sound exactly alike? They don't, genius, and never have.

It reminded me of the fact that they were baffled for years over the station's computer voice and wrongly assumed it was Majel Barrett despite fact that the voices sounded entirely different and that DS9 is a Cardassian station, it wouldn't have the voice of Starfleet computers in it.

Oy vey....these people....

 

[StewMc]

Their comments remind me of my wife’s when she’s half watching an episode of Trek with me: not really paying attention but occasionally makes the odd comment or criticism, sometimes she makes a valid point, others not so much because, well, she’s not been paying attention. Pretty much what happens on this podcast, except these folk are supposedly making notes and watching it multiple times…

It reminded me of the fact that they were baffled for years over the station's computer voice and wrongly assumed it was Majel Barrett despite the voices sounded entirely different and the fact that DS9 is a Cardassian station, it wouldn't have the voice of Starfleet computers in it.

Oy vey....these people....

15 year old me used to get annoyed when they’d use Judi Durand for the Starfleet Computer in various Trek video games around the year 2000. I guess Majel wasn’t available or was too expensive, but still annoyed me as it just felt a bit sloppy.

 

[VDCNI]

Wow, plenty of stupid on display in "Sacrifice of Angels" and I'm not even halfway through it.

Not sure where Armin got the idea that "Ferengi don't kill", but he seems to have made up that concept entirely in his own head. It's not remotely established in canon anywhere.

Sure, there are a few references to Ferengi preferring negotiation over war, but that's about it. There are plenty of times, mostly in TNG, to be fair, where Ferengi are perfectly happy to use deadly force or who are explicitly trying to kill people. Hell, in "Peak Performance," a Ferengi Daimon, played by Armin, is just about to obliterate the Enterprise capriciously for no reason whatsoever except for funsies.

And, on the subject of Armin, he also brings up (again!) his confusion over why Dax pilots the Defiant. As if a Starfleet officer couldn't possibly have more than one skill. The others always bring up her past host's lives, but that is beside the point. Robbie is often mock-annoyed at the fact that seemingly anyone can pilot a ship when that was character's sole area of expertise.

But it's perfectly acceptable that Dax would have more than adequate piloting skills even without having past lives. Hell, Geordi on TNG was a pilot and an engineer. And because TNG made that switch, they often found themselves in the position of having to have a non-speaking extra on the bridge instead of a regular character. DS9 wanted to avoid that, so they slotted Dax into the piloting position, which is perfectly acceptable canonically and also makes good use of the show's cast. (Armin routinely forgets that he's watching a TV show which occasionally has to slightly bend "real world logic" in order to do things, like, say actually feature the show's core cast. God forbid.)

Far more egregious, which they reasonably point out, is Bashir's presence on the bridge, or later Ezri's role on the bridge. I'm sure we'll hear about that when the time comes.

Armin also stupidly says the Founder should put a guard on Odo. Are they even paying attention? The Founders would never, ever do that. A few episodes ago, the Founder said Odo was literally more important than the entire Alpha Quadrant. The Founders consider solids to be lesser life forms, they would never insult one of their own by putting him under guard.

And finally Garrett pipes in with the idiot comment of the week, saying it's a "plot hole" that Rom can tell a Bajoran phaser from a Federation phaser. Hell, I can tell the difference between the two! Does he honestly not think the sound effects department is actually doing their jobs? Do they really think all phasers sound exactly alike? They don't, genius, and never have.

It reminded me of the fact that they were baffled for years over the station's computer voice and wrongly assumed it was Majel Barrett despite fact that the voices sounded entirely different and that DS9 is a Cardassian station, it wouldn't have the voice of Starfleet computers in it.

Oy vey....these people....

Thanks for warning me, I was braced for their nonsense so it didn't bother me so much.

And to be fair they do have a reasonable point, not only on Bashir being on the bridge so much but also that the writers have seemed to have no idea what to do with him recently. Of course that will change in a few episodes as they lean into the genetically enhanced story more.

I also thought Armin read a bit too much into Kira & Odo's scene towards the end, to me it was clear they still had issues but they didn't have time to discuss them. Of course it's not like the series handles things any better next episode.

 

[Poltargyst]

Wow, plenty of stupid on display in "Sacrifice of Angels" and I'm not even halfway through it.

Not sure where Armin got the idea that "Ferengi don't kill", but he seems to have made up that concept entirely in his own head. It's not remotely established in canon anywhere.

Sure, there are a few references to Ferengi preferring negotiation over war, but that's about it. There are plenty of times, mostly in TNG, to be fair, where Ferengi are perfectly happy to use deadly force or who are explicitly trying to kill people. Hell, in "Peak Performance," a Ferengi Daimon, played by Armin, is just about to obliterate the Enterprise capriciously for no reason whatsoever except for funsies.

And, on the subject of Armin, he also brings up (again!) his confusion over why Dax pilots the Defiant. As if a Starfleet officer couldn't possibly have more than one skill. The others always bring up her past host's lives, but that is beside the point. Robbie is often mock-annoyed at the fact that seemingly anyone can pilot a ship when that was character's sole area of expertise.

But it's perfectly acceptable that Dax would have more than adequate piloting skills even without having past lives. Hell, Geordi on TNG was a pilot and an engineer. And because TNG made that switch, they often found themselves in the position of having to have a non-speaking extra on the bridge instead of a regular character. DS9 wanted to avoid that, so they slotted Dax into the piloting position, which is perfectly acceptable canonically and also makes good use of the show's cast. (Armin routinely forgets that he's watching a TV show which occasionally has to slightly bend "real world logic" in order to do things, like, say actually feature the show's core cast. God forbid.)

Far more egregious, which they reasonably point out, is Bashir's presence on the bridge, or later Ezri's role on the bridge. I'm sure we'll hear about that when the time comes.

Armin also stupidly says the Founder should put a guard on Odo. Are they even paying attention? The Founders would never, ever do that. A few episodes ago, the Founder said Odo was literally more important than the entire Alpha Quadrant. The Founders consider solids to be lesser life forms, they would never insult one of their own by putting him under guard.

And finally Garrett pipes in with the idiot comment of the week, saying it's a "plot hole" that Rom can tell a Bajoran phaser from a Federation phaser. Hell, I can tell the difference between the two! Does he honestly not think the sound effects department is actually doing their jobs? Do they really think all phasers sound exactly alike? They don't, genius, and never have.

It reminded me of the fact that they were baffled for years over the station's computer voice and wrongly assumed it was Majel Barrett despite fact that the voices sounded entirely different and that DS9 is a Cardassian station, it wouldn't have the voice of Starfleet computers in it.

Oy vey....these people....

I'd be okay with the idea that "Basic Piloting Skills" is a mandatory class for all Starfleet Academy students regardless of major.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'd be okay with the idea that "Basic Piloting Skills" is a mandatory class for all Starfleet Academy students regardless of major.

Everyone takes the escorting admirals course.

 

[Tosk]

I'd be okay with the idea that "Basic Piloting Skills" is a mandatory class for all Starfleet Academy students regardless of major.

Seeing as Nog was training for it even before getting in, I'd say it's a reasonable bet.

Nog pilots the Runabout in a holosuite, then talks with Jake afterwards.

Jake "...How's it going, anyway?"
Nog "Pretty good. I've improved my reaction time by almost twenty percent, but I've got to get it up another five."
Jake "Is that the cut-off point for getting into the Academy Preparatory Program?
Nog "Exactly."

 

[Crewman6]

Thanks for warning me, I was braced for their nonsense so it didn't bother me so much.

And to be fair they do have a reasonable point, not only on Bashir being on the bridge so much but also that the writers have seemed to have no idea what to do with him recently. Of course that will change in a few episodes as they lean into the genetically enhanced story more.

It is a good point and it's one of those examples where they have to bend logic in order to make use of the series regulars. Having Bashir needlessly on the bridge does strain credulity slightly. Having Dax pilot the ship does not.

I also thought Armin read a bit too much into Kira & Odo's scene towards the end, to me it was clear they still had issues but they didn't have time to discuss them. Of course it's not like the series handles things any better next episode.

Yeah, his reaction to that was weird and overblown. It's a fleeting moment.

But, yeah, the Odo/Kira crap in "You are Cordially Invited" is its own kind of dumb.

 

[Crewman6]

Oh, and Armin actually does deserve credit for one thing: there's no way Damar's image should have been used by the Prophets. Damar has literally nothing to do with Sisko at this point.

They should have slotted Bashir in there.

The hosts complained that Bashir didn't have much to do in the six-episode arc and they're not wrong. But he's also the doctor and he just doesn't have much to do storywise with war and intrigue. At least most of the time. It's not surprising he didn't get much to do. But neither did Dax. She got a light subplot in one episode about being the Defiant's new CO, but most of her actions as captain were off-camera. Worf also had very little to do in most episodes except "Sons and Daughters" - he doesn't even appear in "Rocks and Shoals."

The show was using almost its entire roster of important recurring characters (except Kai Winn) during the arc, so it's not surprising that the characters who are removed from the major decisions during the war wouldn't get much to do. Oh, well.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Seeing as Nog was training for it even before getting in, I'd say it's a reasonable bet.

Wesley Crusher piloted the ship even before he went to the academy.

Robbie is just hurt at the number of characters who were cooler than his.

 

[Tosk]

"But...I fly the ship!"

 

[Bad Thoughts]

"But...I fly the ship!"

He's going to be apoplectic watching Star Trek Generations.

 

[Tosk]

Or he'll be, "See, this is what happens when someone other than Paris pilots."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I do wonder if there is a little jealousy. By comparison to Voyager, DS9 tended to hold back on the special effects until there was a really big episode. Sacrifice of Angels really has one of the best space battles, especially given it was an epic scale battle made for commercial television. And Dax, as the pilot, weaving between the Dominion ships, looks really good. However, being a pilot was not central to the character the way it was with Tom Paris. As Ortegas (and @Tosk ) would likely remind us, other people fly the ship.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

he's also the doctor and he just doesn't have much to do storywise with war and intrigue.

As a producer and director, I would love for Robbie to say how much it would have added to the cost of the episode to do additional filming in sick bay and engineering (because that's where O'brien and Nog should have been). Those things are interesting decisions, but he should acknowledge that they are not without consequences.