Evidence of SNW being a possible alternate timeline from TOS

[Nerys Myk]

The irony is that STID is a compelling story if you realize Marcus is the villain and Khan was just shoehorned in. Putting Khan in the movie did more harm than good. As far as "trying to make WoK again", that's pretty much what Nick Meyer said, and it's also possible that his bemusement at that influenced his negative tone in his comment.

Marcus is the villain. There is no doubt about that. "Khan" worked fine as an adversary/ally through most of the film. And even worked after the reveil.
Trek has been trying remake TWOK since STIII. Meyer is entitled to his opinion, but I think he might not have watch Into Darkness.

 

[Set Harth]

As far as "trying to make WoK again", that's pretty much what Nick Meyer said

Well, that settles it.

 

[Yistaan]

Marcus also puts the much-derided "cadet to captain" nonsense from the 2009 film into some semblance of realism (ok, it's still a stretch but it helps the issue). Marcus is obviously the one who put Kirk into the top spot. He thought he found a dumb kid he could control who would start his war with the Klingons and get the blame for it, while Marcus comes into save the day in a clear parallel to the "old male politician who insists he and only he can save the world while making things worse in the process".

The irony is that Kirk was MUCH smarter than Marcus gave him credit for and saw through his plan (with help from Spock). Even if a review by Starfleet after the events of the movie discovered that Marcus had improperly elevated Kirk to Captain, they know that downgrading him would be a PR disaster in light of him stopping Marcus' war and so kept him on.

I'd say the one really bad part of the film was Kirk engaging in brutality against Khan on Qo'noS, which kind of makes him look no different than Marcus and blurs the differences between Kirk and Marcus that the movie establishes later on. Also McCoy's claims about performing a Ceasarian section on a Gorn totally contradicts what SNW later establishes, although the tie-in game does establish the Gorn he's referring to as coming from another galaxy through a wormhole or something like that.

 

[Set Harth]

You can't really blame the film for not anticipating SNW retconning the Gorn.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's not a good film. But it's also not a complete or lazy copy of TWOK, neither.

 

[fireproof78]

The accusations against ID are often overblown.

 

[TheAussieGonz]

This is quite a tome of detail. I honestly doubt that the writers are as concerned about timelines and continuity as even the 'average' trekkie. I'm just resigned to enjoy whatever comes.

 

[Yistaan]

This is quite a tome of detail. I honestly doubt that the writers are as concerned about timelines and continuity as even the 'average' trekkie. I'm just resigned to enjoy whatever comes.

Except the writers of Prodigy. Even I had trouble figuring out what the timelines were in Prodigy

 

[Dukhat]

It's not a good film. But it's also not a complete or lazy copy of TWOK, neither.

Other than a horribly miscast British guy with the name Khan, two ships fighting each other, and the silly scream, ID has nothing to do with TWOK.

 

[cooleddie74]

Of all the things to blame STID for, "it's a copy of TWOK" has never made sense. It's lazy enough in its own ways without accusing Abrams of putting Nick Meyer on a Xerox machine and blasting off a fuzzy replica.

 

[fireproof78]

Of all the things to blame STID for, "it's a copy of TWOK" has never made sense. It's lazy enough in its own ways without accusing Abrams of putting Nick Meyer on a Xerox machine and blasting off a fuzzy replica.

Agreed. It rips off more from the previous film as much as it borrowed from TWOK. It's a film that over baked in the writers room but has good character work and story throughout.

Dismissing it as a TWOK rip off ignores so much character arc, especially for Kirk.

 

[cooleddie74]

And as much as I feel disappointed by it and have for over a decade, I do actually (mostly) like the first two acts. It's not the worst Star Trek film.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Of all the things to blame STID for, "it's a copy of TWOK" has never made sense. It's lazy enough in its own ways without accusing Abrams of putting Nick Meyer on a Xerox machine and blasting off a fuzzy replica.

He saved that for The Force Awakens.

 

[fireproof78]

And as much as I feel disappointed by it and have for over a decade, I do actually (mostly) like the first two acts. It's not the worst Star Trek film.

My main disappointment was the space jump. Khan reveal didn't bother me too much. It has good parallels to Kirk's story plus showcasing Spock's struggle.

As films go it's very enjoyable.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

STID had presented good ideas and opportunities. I like that it actually tackles the whole thing about Kirk being promoted too soon. However, as soon as Kirk is demoted, he's back to captain in the space of ten minutes.

The funniest part to me is when Khan introduces himself to that grieving father.

"I can save her."
"Who are you?"
(long dramatic dolly shot pulling into Cumberbatch for an uncomfortable amount of time)
"Hello?"
(Cumberbatch keeps staring off, not responding)
"..."

 

[Set Harth]

Other than a horribly miscast British guy with the name Khan

Just like in TWOK, right?

two ships fighting each other

 

[Dukhat]

Just like in TWOK, right?

No.

I fail to see what’s funny.

 

[Yistaan]

Getting back to the 'alternate timeline' topic, nitpicking early TOS episode dialogue might also lead one to believe that SNW is an alternate timeline even if you completely ignore the cosmetic differences.

For example, in Man Trap, Lieutenant Uhura, is attempting to engage Commander Spock in conversation while he sits in the Enterprise's command chair to no avail, as Spock's half-Vulcan heritage makes it difficult for him to understand the nuances of Human speech. Kirk and McCoy beam back up. When the transporter room reports that one of the party is dead, Spock, who is still talking to Uhura, unemotionally responds, "Bridge acknowledging." This causes Uhura to express wonder that Spock did not even ask who among the party had died, as it could have been Captain Kirk, whom Uhura notes is the closest thing he has to a friend. Spock replies that showing concern would not change the outcome of the event and implies that therefore doing so would be meaningless.

The above is summarized from Memory Alpha. Per SNW, not only is Uhura long term friends with Spock, she's actually BEEN a Vulcan thanks to Dr. M'Benga and should understand full well Spock's logical behavior. (and chronologically this is before the Changeling so Nomad mindwiping her wouldn't fit as an explanation either)

We can retcon her TOS dialogue as a joke. But if so, it's a mean-spirited one with SNW establishing that the TOS crew knew each other for some time, including Uhura herself, yet she calls Kirk "the closest thing Spock has to a friend". Then again, Uhura's Kelvin counterpart was kind of mean-spirited so who knows, maybe Prime Uhura can just be like that sometimes.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think it's meant as a joke or to indicate unfamiliarity. I think it's Uhura expressing her own concern and talking it through.

 

[HotRod]

Getting back to the 'alternate timeline' topic, nitpicking early TOS episode dialogue might also lead one to believe that SNW is an alternate timeline even if you completely ignore the cosmetic differences.

For example, in Man Trap, Lieutenant Uhura, is attempting to engage Commander Spock in conversation while he sits in the Enterprise's command chair to no avail, as Spock's half-Vulcan heritage makes it difficult for him to understand the nuances of Human speech. Kirk and McCoy beam back up. When the transporter room reports that one of the party is dead, Spock, who is still talking to Uhura, unemotionally responds, "Bridge acknowledging." This causes Uhura to express wonder that Spock did not even ask who among the party had died, as it could have been Captain Kirk, whom Uhura notes is the closest thing he has to a friend. Spock replies that showing concern would not change the outcome of the event and implies that therefore doing so would be meaningless.

The above is summarized from Memory Alpha. Per SNW, not only is Uhura long term friends with Spock, she's actually BEEN a Vulcan thanks to Dr. M'Benga and should understand full well Spock's logical behavior. (and chronologically this is before the Changeling so Nomad mindwiping her wouldn't fit as an explanation either)

We can retcon her TOS dialogue as a joke. But if so, it's a mean-spirited one with SNW establishing that the TOS crew knew each other for some time, including Uhura herself, yet she calls Kirk "the closest thing Spock has to a friend". Then again, Uhura's Kelvin counterpart was kind of mean-spirited so who knows, maybe Prime Uhura can just be like that sometimes.

Or she's acknowledging and acting frustrated with Spock, knowing that he wasn't always so stoic and emotionally closed. She remembers the old Spock and is frustrated by his current attitude.