To be fair, guys, we also got young Jim Kirk in his tighty whites in 2009 and Into Darkness.
You can argue parity of nudity but was that needed to serve the plot either? Is parity of gratuitousness any better? At least in Heated Rivalry the nudity was highly relevant to the plot, if somewhat overdone to secure a bit of notoriety.
But then can any of us unsee Shatner in tights from Charlie X? And people criticise Jay-Den for wearing a skirt. Yeesh.
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Personally I saw the Uhura scene as fun. And let’s be honest: would you want any of the guys trying that fan dance? I wouldn’t!
Nothing wrong with gratuitous eye candy, why does this traumatize people so much? Shauna's outfit in Triskelion was gratuitous, seven of nines outfit was gratuitous, the Cloudminers, Captains Holiday, showing women with banging bodies in bikinis, thank you very much... gratuitous, all of it....and we can say " yeah that was gratuitous...", and move on it need not scar people for life though.
Objecting to objectifying is not trauma. What a gross misuse of the word.
The way I would describe why I didn't like the Carol in her undies scene is to compare it to product placement.
A movie where a character drinks a Coke doesn't bother me.
A movie where the character picks up a Coke and says, "Ah, thank goodness. I love Coke." and then carefully holds it so that the label faces the camera while drinking it does bother me.
A movie where a character drinks a Coke doesn't bother me.
A movie where the character picks up a Coke and says, "Ah, thank goodness. I love Coke." and then carefully holds it so that the label faces the camera while drinking it does bother me.
I do understand why they do it, but when they are so obvious, it's just nasty. Kate Mulgrew was famously furious with the way they presented Seven. I get that they wanted Seven to grab attention but in the one episode she wore a standard uniform, I thought she looked cool. They could have done that a lot sooner.
Same with Troi. Her writing started to improve when they put her in a uniform and remembered, oh yeah, she's actually a high ranking astronaut and not just a counselor.
Same with TOS women. The skants were suggested by Grace Lee Whitney and they helped make the show iconic but I think even she was disappointed with the way the treatment of the women devolved so rapidly from the first two pilots when being eye candy became more important than being protagonists.
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Lots of great commentary in this topic…I will focus on a couple aspects here, but in my head I had SOOO many things to say/ask about the discussion…
Regarding the possibility of “saving” STV with SFX, deleted scenes, or rewrites, etc:
Like many of you commented, better special effects would certainly improve the look of this film, but cannot by themselves save it. I’m sure my perspective comes partly from my Gen X sensibility, but the over-reliance on CGI and other movie-making technologies too often overwhelm human actors to the point that character and plot become bogged down into a “Spectacle,” or completely unintelligible, or are subsumed by it all.
I recently read a fanfic “fixit” that tried to rewrite the second half of the movie by a quick realization of Sybok’s mental instability and destruction of the alien entity — then a focus on returning through the Barrier (whether it’s the center of our galaxy or the outside border of it…doesn’t matter) because Kirk and crew remember what happened to Gary Mitchell and must now round up all crew and Sybok’s followers with high esper ratings and secure them in a refortified brig to hopefully protect them from developing those megalomaniac powers Gary had. This fic actually had discussion (unfinished, so I completed it in my head, what fun) rigging the shuttle bay as the holding cell with the proviso that Kirk could, if necessary, depressurize the hanger deck and blow the silver-eyed afflicted into outer space. Imagine THAT scene for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy to hammer out, and the burden of such a decision on Kirk’s shoulders.
Well, it’s better than that ridiculous God hologram and bolts of lightning à la The Ten Commandments 1950’s style!
STV could have addressed Sybok as so delusional and manipulative that with his Vulcan powers, he is far too dangerous and must be captured or killed. Not so funny now, huh? Think of the impact of a mentally ill, uncontrollable, delusional madman with the mental powers of a Vulcan and political hostages to boot.
Yes, I agree that lots more could have come from those diplomats on Nimbus III.
Yes, we should have seen Kirk’s pain. He could still protest that he “needs his pain” but is still overcome by Sybok— even Spock could not protect him. Then Kirk would have to deal with his painful memories which would provide compelling character development for him — although Shatner admittedly wouldn’t want Jim so exposed and vulnerable, that is what being a GROWN PERSON is all about.
I really, really, really hated the ease at which Sybok was able to control Kirk’s experienced command crew. They should have fought and struggled and suffered — these are Command Grade Officers for goodness sake. And Sulu wants his own command? I don’t think so. Cheap jokes and silly pratfalls took the easy way out. It demeaned these characters and showed how little they were valued as members of a supposedly elite team of professionals.
On Shatner’s direction:
Maybe I don’t fully understand the responsibility of a director in Hollywood movies, but I thought the direction was great. The assault team scenes on Nimbus III were slick,
militaristic, and shows them working strategically as a team; all very action-hero fast-paced and not something we have seen from THIS crew since the TV show in the 1960’s. The writing fell apart after Act 2 or 3 — wasn’t there a writers strike at that time or something ? — but I fail to understand why no one else at Paramount could find a way to improve that script. Shatner was not a one-man production. If the studio was so upset, they had the power to fix it. Executive producers? Anyone? I feel that there’s inherent dislike or disregard for all the Star Trek actors [except perhaps Nimoy] as a group of people who got lucky and the show’s success was a happy fluke that made the studio lots of money. The powers that be were happy to lay blame at Captain Kirk’s feet and relished embarrassing Shatner and co. as barely talented actors who did not really deserve the fan adoration, fame, or paychecks from a major motion picture, but they were tolerated because they made money for Paramount. Ultimately, STV made money comparable to the other films (except ST4) when calculated over the decades with videos, DVD, overseas, etc.
What I love about TFF:
The musical score is just gorgeous — especially the opening sequence where Kirk climbs El Capitan.
The campfire scenes with Jim, Spock, and Bones were just great. Fun, nostalgic, poignant, and a little silly. I wish they chose a better song than Row Row Row (you know what it is) — something more profound or how about ORIGINAL? I would love to hear Moon over Rigel 7. Or just skip the music and let them tell ghost stories or childhood memories instead. How about talking about the fal-tor-pan or katras? But you have to be cold as a Kohlinar disciple to not love those scenes.
I don’t view the Kelvin timeline with much favor. Kirk is too different, Spock is WAY too different, and they killed Amanda. Why? Why? Why? (It’s David Marcus all over again.) The casting was superb, but the writing was awful. It wasn’t Star Trek. The AU excuse doesn’t work for me. The bridge is too bright white and everything is too shiny. They rehashed Khan AGAIN as if Nemesis wasn’t enough. *sigh*
I know I am biased and I am thrilled that the 2009 films have brought new people into ST fandom. I try to give each new series a shot: I loved TNG and Voyager (mostly) but I never finished DS9, Enterprise, and Discovery, and I can’t stomach Starfleet Academy.
I like ST: SNW! Finally, Pike done right. Although I have issues with it, too, but there is more connection to Trek ideals here than I have seen in years.
STV tried to take a high concept idea with social commentary and blend it into space faring adventure. It was too tall an order, but at least Shatner and his team tried to entertain the fans and do what was essentially a typical TOS episode. I can understand how viewers unfamiliar with Trek might not like it, but original fans see some great moments in it that make it worth watching. It’s still better than 90% of the junk made today. (Ok, I have officially become my parents. *sigh*)
Regarding the possibility of “saving” STV with SFX, deleted scenes, or rewrites, etc:
Like many of you commented, better special effects would certainly improve the look of this film, but cannot by themselves save it. I’m sure my perspective comes partly from my Gen X sensibility, but the over-reliance on CGI and other movie-making technologies too often overwhelm human actors to the point that character and plot become bogged down into a “Spectacle,” or completely unintelligible, or are subsumed by it all.
I recently read a fanfic “fixit” that tried to rewrite the second half of the movie by a quick realization of Sybok’s mental instability and destruction of the alien entity — then a focus on returning through the Barrier (whether it’s the center of our galaxy or the outside border of it…doesn’t matter) because Kirk and crew remember what happened to Gary Mitchell and must now round up all crew and Sybok’s followers with high esper ratings and secure them in a refortified brig to hopefully protect them from developing those megalomaniac powers Gary had. This fic actually had discussion (unfinished, so I completed it in my head, what fun) rigging the shuttle bay as the holding cell with the proviso that Kirk could, if necessary, depressurize the hanger deck and blow the silver-eyed afflicted into outer space. Imagine THAT scene for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy to hammer out, and the burden of such a decision on Kirk’s shoulders.
Well, it’s better than that ridiculous God hologram and bolts of lightning à la The Ten Commandments 1950’s style!
STV could have addressed Sybok as so delusional and manipulative that with his Vulcan powers, he is far too dangerous and must be captured or killed. Not so funny now, huh? Think of the impact of a mentally ill, uncontrollable, delusional madman with the mental powers of a Vulcan and political hostages to boot.
Yes, I agree that lots more could have come from those diplomats on Nimbus III.
Yes, we should have seen Kirk’s pain. He could still protest that he “needs his pain” but is still overcome by Sybok— even Spock could not protect him. Then Kirk would have to deal with his painful memories which would provide compelling character development for him — although Shatner admittedly wouldn’t want Jim so exposed and vulnerable, that is what being a GROWN PERSON is all about.
I really, really, really hated the ease at which Sybok was able to control Kirk’s experienced command crew. They should have fought and struggled and suffered — these are Command Grade Officers for goodness sake. And Sulu wants his own command? I don’t think so. Cheap jokes and silly pratfalls took the easy way out. It demeaned these characters and showed how little they were valued as members of a supposedly elite team of professionals.
On Shatner’s direction:
Maybe I don’t fully understand the responsibility of a director in Hollywood movies, but I thought the direction was great. The assault team scenes on Nimbus III were slick,
militaristic, and shows them working strategically as a team; all very action-hero fast-paced and not something we have seen from THIS crew since the TV show in the 1960’s. The writing fell apart after Act 2 or 3 — wasn’t there a writers strike at that time or something ? — but I fail to understand why no one else at Paramount could find a way to improve that script. Shatner was not a one-man production. If the studio was so upset, they had the power to fix it. Executive producers? Anyone? I feel that there’s inherent dislike or disregard for all the Star Trek actors [except perhaps Nimoy] as a group of people who got lucky and the show’s success was a happy fluke that made the studio lots of money. The powers that be were happy to lay blame at Captain Kirk’s feet and relished embarrassing Shatner and co. as barely talented actors who did not really deserve the fan adoration, fame, or paychecks from a major motion picture, but they were tolerated because they made money for Paramount. Ultimately, STV made money comparable to the other films (except ST4) when calculated over the decades with videos, DVD, overseas, etc.
What I love about TFF:
The musical score is just gorgeous — especially the opening sequence where Kirk climbs El Capitan.
The campfire scenes with Jim, Spock, and Bones were just great. Fun, nostalgic, poignant, and a little silly. I wish they chose a better song than Row Row Row (you know what it is) — something more profound or how about ORIGINAL? I would love to hear Moon over Rigel 7. Or just skip the music and let them tell ghost stories or childhood memories instead. How about talking about the fal-tor-pan or katras? But you have to be cold as a Kohlinar disciple to not love those scenes.
I don’t view the Kelvin timeline with much favor. Kirk is too different, Spock is WAY too different, and they killed Amanda. Why? Why? Why? (It’s David Marcus all over again.) The casting was superb, but the writing was awful. It wasn’t Star Trek. The AU excuse doesn’t work for me. The bridge is too bright white and everything is too shiny. They rehashed Khan AGAIN as if Nemesis wasn’t enough. *sigh*
I know I am biased and I am thrilled that the 2009 films have brought new people into ST fandom. I try to give each new series a shot: I loved TNG and Voyager (mostly) but I never finished DS9, Enterprise, and Discovery, and I can’t stomach Starfleet Academy.
I like ST: SNW! Finally, Pike done right. Although I have issues with it, too, but there is more connection to Trek ideals here than I have seen in years.
STV tried to take a high concept idea with social commentary and blend it into space faring adventure. It was too tall an order, but at least Shatner and his team tried to entertain the fans and do what was essentially a typical TOS episode. I can understand how viewers unfamiliar with Trek might not like it, but original fans see some great moments in it that make it worth watching. It’s still better than 90% of the junk made today. (Ok, I have officially become my parents. *sigh*)
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You know it's interesting, but the more and more I watch the (triggering) scene, I almost feel like they were going for a comedy bit...
I'm that context I don't find it objectifying..this scene is near the end of the movie....if this scene was our first introduction to Carol Marcus, I might feel differently...she is established first as a brilliant woman who can go toe to toe with the cast, the fact that she has a physique that makes many envious is simply the bookend on the character.
As far as Kate Mulgrew, there is also an interview where she sees Jeri Ryan in her suit and says to Picardo : " Let's get a drink, we are about to get a big raise!"
Generations change, actors come and go, and one truth remains: sex sells
Maybe they can release an updated version and CGI Zoe Saldana in that scene!!
For me anyway, the skirt issue was not the skirt proper, just the fact that it looked like something from Old Navy.... hoping that a Klingon skirt would look more aggressive.
Unfortunately, the studio wanted a comedy and Shatner tried to do both.
The Uhura dance scene is stupid because the crew
- Have Uhura strip to next to nothing or nothing
- Assume the guards are human or attracted to humans
- Assume they're all straight men, or lesbians
- Assume they're all horny
- Assume they're stupid enough to fall for this dumb ruse
In Uhura's defence, I am sure she would have done her research before implementing such a nutty plan. She probably joined a few local chat groups.
Someone mentioned a writer's strike about something else, and it is worth noting that there was a writer's strike during the making of 2009 film, so many of the little wording fixes that should have occurred could not, due to the strike.
I recall reading an interview in which it was explained something like this: The same people who wrote the movie also produced and directed the movie. Thus, in this case, if the director or producer asked a line of dialogue to be changed, then it would be the same as the writer making a change to the script, which would not happen during the strike. Therefore, they had to shoot every line as written, even if they knew there was an error with regards to Star Trek's onscreen tech or history, as it was at the time.
I think both of those reactions are taking continuity way too far, using continuity to hurt storytelling rather than help it. I don't think it matters that one episode had Kirk with a much younger rarely thought of brother and likewise doesn't matter that a little over 70 episodes and a few more films didn't establish that Spock had a brother, why would they, must they have, it at least made sense, was plausible when the half-brother was estranged and Spock rarely talked about his family, personal life at all anyway.
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