I don't see that as a problem (see The Curious Case of Benjamin Button).
A few things to discuss about Kes
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IDK. If they became involved, let's say, when she was 5, at a later stage of maturity, it could be a fun dynamic. I could see Harry dominated by a more mature woman.
ETA: If something about Kes doesn't work, IMO, it's the makeup. Lien complained about the effects of putting the ears on, so maybe they became wary of the more intensive makeup that would be required in later seasons. Or they decided Lien had to remain always young and beautiful, and would not explore aging makeup.
It would require a certain flexibility, that's for sure. Especially since we know from (adult) Linnis that Harry's really good with kids; he was probably a regular babysitter to her.
That being said, I reiterate: Neelix, Tom, and Harry are all honorable men. They would not, under any circumstances, exploit a vulnerable person. So Linnis was clearly capable of making a rational choice, and she chose Harry. Maybe she had to do a lot of work on him to get him to go along with it.
That is absolutely a fair point. Still can't shake the feeling...
In real life, an old class mate of mine had a relationship with a woman for a while, he became custodian of her underage daughter when she passed away. As soon as that girl hit 18, they became a couple....
I may have a bias when it comes to things like this.
Since the elogium happens only once between the ages of 4 and 5 they would have to have been together a little bit before then or it was a pretty last minute decision.
I wonder if the Ocampans are aware that only one child for every couple is a path to species extinction.
I think most of us do. And that's as it should be.
Ocampa reach physical and sexual maturity before turning 2, so there's some leeway. A quarter of a lifetime of it, for them.
Still, it would have been a major mental adjust for all the humans involved. Given that what we consider "legally adult", the Ocampa consider "your grandchildren are dead".
I wonder what the writers were thinking. Surely even they knew that one child per woman is a path to oblivion. One that Europe, Asia, and the USA are currently on.
I understand that you really, really like Kes, but are you this passionate about everything in Trek being as realistic as you want the Ocampans to be, or is this a matter of bias towards the Kes character?
My bad if this comes off as rude; it's a legitimate question.
It's not true. Fans have more time and effort to put in than professionals. Fans lack any of the deadlines that professionals have or the pressure to complete something in a limited time frame.
Unfortunately unnecessary death is something I feel like is a part of Trek.
Obviously but the foundational ideas that he created for Star Trek persist, especially in the TNG era. But, as with new life seeking, there is opportunity with Kes to see things from a different point of view with a shorter life span.
Yes, but at least Harry survived which could lead to a promotion and further development in books and such (if the authors aren't too destructive or slaves to canon). Kes was uttely destroyed and no one (except me) have dared to come up wih some scenario in any book in which the destruction of the character in Tge gift and that season six episode are erased.
For harry there is always a chance for redemption while Kes forever remains destroyed.
I agree on that one!Well, OK. But the leola root enchiladas were my idea.
I agree. In fact, Enterprise could have been a good solution. In that case Jadzia and some TNG character could have showed up in the last DS9 episode. We could also have got some information about what the Enterprise was doimng during the Dominion War. Strange that no one has written a book about what the Enterprise was doing during the war.
I agree about all that.
It gave me a sort of "Soviet feeling" when I watched that episode, sort of "all planets and empires must become like the Federation immediately, just like the Soviets did in Eastern europe after WWII when all the countries they occupied during the war became Communist dictatorships.
Maybe a harsh description since the Federation is actually a quite good society but ..........
Not to mention that future Trek would be boring if Klingons, Ferengis, Cardassians, Romulans and all the other would be Federation clones. We need a little tension, that's why Gowron should have remained Klingon Channcellor.
Where can I find it?
And is there any chance for a Gowron come-back?
On the contrary, I find it quite telling and even inspiring when gifted fans can come up with better stories than Berman and his gang could.
It also shows that many of us fans care more for Star Trek and the different characters than the hired hands does.
Yes and that made her a very intersting character.
Jennifer Lien's acting in the episode was excellent. But the episode itself was quite weird and Kes's role was quite limited. A Kes with a human lifespan would have been much more interesting and then we wouldn't have to endure the Harry/Linnis relationship.
Yes, they did and therefore another fast-growing kid was just unnecessary.
I guess that the episode was just a last desperate attempt to use the nine-year lifespan in some story.
It would have been better if they had concentrated on giving kes a human lifespan since they already had given us hints about it in Cold Fire.
Lien had an allergic reaction to the glue they used to attach the Ocampa ears.
As for aging makeup, it actually looked terrible when used on Trek actors. Mostly it looked like they were suffering from some sort of disease.
The whole thing with a nine-year lifespan plus that silly one-child syndrome was downright stupid. How could they come up with such scenarios and why didn't they try to change them?
Actually a good question.
I do like when characters are realistic, not only the Ocampa.
Sometimes I cringe when I see giant space-living creatures or see Paris and Janeway be turned into lizards and then The Doctor reverse them back to normal like nothing has happened.
I have no bias against Kes as a character, it was just the life-span which was silly.
What was intersting with kes was her personality, something which could have been used even better.
Fans also care more about the characters and the series itself than some of the hired writers seem to do.
Unfortunately unnecessary death seems to have become epidemic among the writers of episodes and authors of books too.
I mean, a series like NCIS at least have the decency not to kill off great characters like Tony DiNozzo, Ziva, Abby, Jack, Ellie and main character Gibbs himself when the actors wanted to leave but in Star Trek they kill off characters at random, even in recent books where there are no actors who want to quit.
I don't think that the nine-year lifespan made anyone to see anything from any different point of view. It was just a waste, a mistake which should have been corrected.
Again, why is it a necessity? The fact that it was shown in the episode does not require it to happen, and indeed, Janeway uses the information Kes passes along to affect what she does in Year of Hell. It's not predetermined or necessary.
Yes. That is the nature of being a fan. Writers can't afford that care.
Been there since TOS.
And it could have been. That's my point is that it offers a creative opportunity to explore the nature of aging, to experience a lifetime and all the challenges that go with it. From a science fiction perspective that's an amazing writing opportunity if one is bold enough to try something new.
A chance that keeps not happening. Efforts to bring Harry back in PRO and PIC were stymied. His LD appearance seemed designed to suck off the "forever ensign" crowd. And even an effort to give him posthumous recognition in SFA seems to have been deleted.For harry there is always a chance for redemption while Kes forever remains destroyed.
Yes.
Gordon should have remained the fierce snd honorable, if also political and expedient, Klingon warrior. And Worf shouldn't have made a horrific mess and then summarily dumped it in Martok's lap with a platitude from Kahless to excuse his action.
Agreed. By adding taxation, welfare, and democracy to the Ferengi Alliance, they're basically the Federation with money now.
She carried the whole episode. How is that limited?!
I'm OK with the lifespan because I understand what thry were trying to do... but the "one-child" nonsense is an insult to our intelligence.
It took me about 30 minutes to fix what was screwed up with "Nightingale". So, not buying it.
Not buying what? That writers don't care like fans? That fans don't have the pressure of writing under a deadline, modifying scripts based upon production limitations?
It's like fans questioning every football decision and wondering how the player couldn't possibly see X. Except, there are several other details they have to adjust for.
^ If that one episode was the exception to the rule, I might go along with that. But it's actually par for the course.
Again, without knowing the BTS we can only speculate. My larger point that writers and fans care differently stands.
Because that relationship was there and it was stupid.
I mean, they are people who are upset about the Kes/Neelix relationship and in that case we actually had a relationship between a 19 year old alien and a 30 or so alien. The Kim/Linnis relationship pushed it further.
Which is one of many reason why I'm happy that the alternate reality was just an alternatr reality-or a bad dream.
Oh yes, they can. Having a deadline doesn't excuse bad writing. I have had a deadline many times for my writings and still have had time to care to make a good article.
Has it?
Let me see, Spock was killed off because Nimoy wanted to quit. Then they realized that Star Trek would lose a lot without him and persuaded Nimoy to come back and came up with ( a somewhat weird) come back story for Spock.
They didn't kill off Kirk, Scotty, McCoy or any other main character in the last movie as they did with Data in Nemesis.
I think that they can spare us from that kind of melodramatic goo.
Star Trek is mostly about exploration and adventures. Those who like to watch aging, slow deaths and misery can watch some of those third-rate soap operas where the death of a main character takes six episode or so with old ladies crying in front of their TV:s
Unfortunately, I have to agree here.
But the chance for a promotion for Harry is still there and it's a much bigger chance than a chance for Kes to come back in a decent episode where they don't finish her of for good, using that nine-year lifespan stupidity as a reason for doing so.
I agree. Here they have the best Klingon character ever and they made him look like a fool in that episode. Even Worf and Martok came out like fools here.
The Klingon Empire would be much better with Gowron in charge than the all too federation-friendly Martok.
As for Martok, he was great as a warrior and character but not as a Chancellor. That role should be Gowron's.
Yes and it feels wrong in some way.
She carried that episode, yes. But the character was limited because of the lifespan thing.
Imagine an episode when they had focused on Kes's abilities and personality instead.
I'm not OK with the lifespan since it was unrealistic and limited the character. They should have done something about it, like letting Suspiria, Q or someone else give her something like a human lifespan.
As for the "one child" thing, it's incredible that they didn't realize how bad and unrealistic it was.
Neither do I since I've had deadlines and still managed to come up with decent storiesand articles.
Some writers do care. There are series where they haven't done the same horrible mistakes as in Star Trek and there are series where they don't finish off main characters at random.
In some cases, yes. But it still don't excuse sloppy writing.
Maybe in these bigger corporations. Smallers companies, like Stardock, do. Leading creator of Galactic Civilizations game series do care, engages with and respects fans and write well. And does it within deadlines to DLC/game release.
Brad Wardell (or Frogboy as he calls himself) is proof that creators can care.
Of course they can care. But deadlines don't let out it in like fans do.
Finishing off characters doesn't indicate a lack of care.
Who is excusing it? I'm seeking understanding not blaming.
Somehow, I've got a feeling that, in general, game developers care more than film or tv producers. Maybe because games can usually be patched up, but it's harder for films and tv.
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