What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[137th Gebirg]

That's the thing, though. TOS wasn't an ensemble cast. It was a show about three main characters. Period. The remaining characters were there to help move the plot along. It was structured like a typical 60's TV show would be structured. Yes, there were certain episodes where the supporting cast got more to do, but most of the time, it was supposed to be Kirk, Spock, and McCoy heading off to planetary adventures while everyone else sat around the bridge and waited on them.

Sometime during Trek's great syndication run during the 70's, and particularly the rise of conventions, many people associated with the show, not the least of which was Roddenberry, began rewriting history as to what the series was. Fans began elevating anyone who appeared in the show as though they were all legendary members of a big ensemble show. But that's never the way it actually happened.

Yes, I should have elaborated on that. Quite right, the convention attendees seemed to elevate the importance in the minds of the "others", which seemed to convince them that they should have been billed at the same level as the Big 3. The writers did take an occasional stab at exploring their characters to a small degree, but egos and the passage of time skewed the reality of the situation. Yes, it was never considered an ensemble. I think they tried to rectify some of that when they were writing for TNG, but didn't really get there (IMO) until DS9, which felt truly like an ensemble show. VOY? Meh...

If you've ever seen the scene or heard the recording you know this is a BS story against Shatner. It's a terrible line and the reading of the line wasn't even good.

I think I remember seeing that extended scene a long time ago. Yeah, it was not a well done bit of dialog and I was glad that it was dropped. Sadly, Takei really thought he could get some serious self-promotion mileage off it, though, leveraging it (and other perceived slights) to manipulate the others against Shatner to boost his own dwindling relevance. Fortunately, I think that has all played itself out, for the most part. Everyone knows all the backstories and drawn their own educated conclusions about the various facets of "The Feud". Based on what I've seen, it would appear that Shatner came out on top, although I'm sure there is still a core group of Team-Takei party-faithful who will never be convinced, and still think a "Captain Sulu" show is still possible if Paramount would just listen to reason! Not really even worth perpetuating.

When it comes to Shatner, I don’t trust a single word that comes out of George Takei’s mouth.

I’m sure there’s some truth in his vitriol, but it’s mixed in with so much of his own personal biased bullshit that it’s impossible to differentiate fact from fiction.

A very unpleasant, embittered individual.

100% agreed.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Yeah, I actually do respect George Takei, but he is definitely a flawed and imperfect individual in some respects who has issues that he needs to deal with. I was particularly disappointed with his comments about Shatner going into space.

 

[BillJ]

It was a show about three main characters. Period.

Technically, it was about two main characters. McCoy wormed his way in with outstanding performances early on.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Interestingly, Kelley never really seemed to incur the wrath of the 2nd Tiers as much as Shatner and Nimoy, despite his elevated status. I guess maybe it's because he was once considered "one of them" and, IIRC, went out of his way to play the peacemaker and smooth things over when little spats broke out amongst the cast. I could be misremembering, though. Been known to happen.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

1) I rather think Rodenberry was hoping that we would NOT notice any similarities between Q and anyone else.

And 2) I can imagine McCoy being used as a hook to get a TOS fan to watch TNG. (He wasn't. He wasn't in any of the promotional material.) But do you think anyone was saying "Hey! Come watch TNG! It's got a character JUST like Trelane in it!"?

Oh? Then it would have been helpful not to have a character who--in appearance, behavior and power--did not resemble Trelane. Hell, the TNG pilot also had humanity on trial...just like Kirk was put on trial by Trelane. Nope, no similarities there...

Right? I mean, I really wish they had called it "Picard's Eight" and made no reference to anything from TOS at all, up to and including Enterprise, Starships, the Federation, or Warp Drive.

Cute, but no sale. If Roddenberry really wanted no TOS references, then the last thing he would have done is bring one of TOS' biggest characters back and force dialogue right out of the gates trying to make Data the new Spock (which did not work).

 

[BillJ]

I know this is probably blasphemy for some, but there was a clear difference in talent between Shatner, Nimoy, Kelly and the rest.

 

[BillJ]

Oh? Then it would have been helpful not to have a character who--in appearance, behavior and power--did not resemble Trelane. Hell, the TNG pilot also had humanity on trial...just like Kirk was put on trial by Trelane. Nope, no similarities there...

I thought DC Fontana wrote the Q portion of the script, after Paramount wanted the pilot expanded.

 

[CoveTom]

Technically, it was about two main characters. McCoy wormed his way in with outstanding performances early on.

Very true. I was thinking about over the course of the series. He was given main billing with Shatner and Nimoy for the second and third seasons as well as for TAS and the movies. So he became a main character as you said. None of the others did.

Interestingly, Kelley never really seemed to incur the wrath of the 2nd Tiers as much as Shatner and Nimoy, despite his elevated status. I guess maybe it's because he was once considered "one of them" and, IIRC, went out of his way to play the peacemaker and smooth things over when little spats broke out amongst the cast. I could be misremembering, though. Been known to happen.

Kelley is one of those rarities in Hollywood -- someone I've never heard a negative word spoken about by anyone. I never knew him personally, of course, but he seems like he actually was truly a southern gentleman and got along with everyone.

 

[CoveTom]

I thought DC Fontana wrote the Q portion of the script, after Paramount wanted the pilot expanded.

No, other way around. Fontana wrote the original Farpoint mystery and then, when it expanded to a two-hour show, Roddenberry wrote the Q parts. Fontana didn't like the Q parts, not because she disliked John deLancie or even the character of Q, but because she felt it didn't mesh with her original Farpoint story. She talks about this in her interview during Shatner's "Chaos on the Bridge" documentary.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, poor Worf was simply the gauge by which other invading alien intruder species of the week could show off how bad-ass they were by throwing the big bad Klingon around like a ragdoll.

His tactical prowess in battle amounted to "Mr. Worf: Execute defensive maneuver Omega-Zeta-Two and fire a full spread of torpedoes!" and how fast his fingers could manage the controls behind Picard's head.

Kind of sad, actually.

I've said as much in this thread: the handling of the first regular Klingon character on a ST series was screwed out of the gates. Worf was rarely, if ever taken seriously on an intellectual level, being more like the oversized, half-trained Bigfoot and/or pet who needed to be talked down (by his pompous "owners") from decisions / approaches that his shipmates found to be the opposite of bright, or having the effect of the bull in a china shop.

...but this was supposed to be some upgrade with depth from the allegedly "mustache-twirling" Klingon stereotype from TOS. Mm-hmm...

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I know this is probably blasphemy for some, but there was a clear difference in talent between Shatner, Nimoy, Kelly and the rest.

Undeniable, I’d say. Koenig and Takei are incredibly one note. Doohan and Nichols do better, but they aren’t in the same league as the trinity.

There’s a texture to the performances of Shatner/Nimoy/Kelley which the others lack.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

When you're trying to create an ally and the only examples of this species you have are enemies (however civil they may be sometimes), it can be hard to figure out what that looks like. Instead of starting with, "here's a Klingon, but he's good", they could've said, "here's a good guy, but he's also a Klingon - what does that look like?"

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

TV was different back then, though. I don't think the writers really knew how to handle an ensemble cast.

TV writers were well seasoned at handling ensemble casts before TOS came along; from The Andy Griffith Show, Leave it to Beaver, Bonanza, The Munsters, The Donna Reed Show to two Bob Denver series--The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis and Gilligan's Island--intentional ensemble casts working to perfection were commonplace. The decades-long misunderstanding is that Star Trek was an ensemble series, when it was not, which is clear by just watching the structure of the series.

That's the thing, though. TOS wasn't an ensemble cast. It was a show about three main characters. Period. The remaining characters were there to help move the plot along.

This.

Sometime during Trek's great syndication run during the 70's, and particularly the rise of conventions, many people associated with the show, not the least of which was Roddenberry, began rewriting history as to what the series was. Fans began elevating anyone who appeared in the show as though they were all legendary members of a big ensemble show. But that's never the way it actually happened.

Exactly. I was there at many of the early conventions to witness the day players play into TOS' ever-growing phenomenal status and the Roddenberry-packaged myth of the "Star Trek Family", as if Sulu, Scotty, Uhura, Chapel and Chekov were all--from the point of being hired for the series--intended to be on the same level of importance to plot (and marketing) as Shatner, Nimoy & Kelley. They were not, but the bitter day players willingly bought the myth and wasted decades of their lives attacking Shatner for their lack of presence on TOS, instead of looking behind the camera to see who set the series up to run that way.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If you've ever seen the scene or heard the recording you know this is a BS story against Shatner. It's a terrible line and the reading of the line wasn't even good.

Yes. "Any chance to go aboard the Enterprise, however briefly, is always an excuse for nostalgia" is a horribly written line, and Takei's stilted delivery didn't help.

And if Takei thinks that was a scene about Sulu's promotion, he's fooling himself. It's a throwaway line that was only there in the first place to enhance Kirk's character arc, and the fact that it cut so easily out of the movie proves that it wasn't essential.

When it comes to Shatner, I don’t trust a single word that comes out of George Takei’s mouth.

I’m sure there’s some truth in his vitriol, but it’s mixed in with so much of his own personal biased bullshit that it’s impossible to differentiate fact from fiction.

A very unpleasant, embittered individual.

Agreed. It used to be a cute bit, and now it's just sad and beyond tiresome. Oh, so the guy was short with you six decades ago? Get the fuck over it.

I was particularly disappointed with his comments about Shatner going into space.

Yeah, that was the last straw for me. I stopped following Takei and muted him on social media after that.

I know this is probably blasphemy for some, but there was a clear difference in talent between Shatner, Nimoy, Kelly and the rest.

There’s a texture to the performances of Shatner/Nimoy/Kelley which the others lack.

100% agree. Kelley earned his place in the Big Three by sheer talent. And Shatner and Nimoy are definitely the best actors in the TOS company. If they hadn't become famous for Star Trek, they likely would've become famous for something else. I don't think you can say that about the others.

 

[Tallguy]

And if Takei thinks that was a scene about Sulu's promotion, he's fooling himself. It's a throwaway line that was only there in the first place to enhance Kirk's character arc, and the fact that it cut so easily out of the movie proves that it wasn't essential.

It's a great scene in the book.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Yeah, that was the last straw for me. I stopped following Takei and muted him on social media after that.

There was just no need for it. ‘Boldly going where others have gone before’ or cries of ‘it’s not really space’.

FFS, the dude (Takei) is in his 80s. A little maturity and dignity would go a long way.

Shatner comes out of the whole thing way better by just generally rolling his eyes and laughing it off.

I hope by the time I’m pushing 90, all my grudges are way behind me. Surely there are more important things in life.

Then again, Takei seems to have made hating on Shatner into a kind of cottage industry. It gets him headlines which in turn gives him the attention he craves.

It’s pathetic. Truly.

 

[CoveTom]

I don't know what Takei thought would happen if the character of Sulu got his own ship. However, the TOS movies were always going to be about the adventures of the Enterprise and her crew. They managed to put Sulu on a separate ship and make it work once in TUC, and even then his character had very little screen time. If he had been moved to another ship in TWOK, Sulu would have likely just disappeared from the films just like Chapel did when she moved to Starfleet Medical. It might have been good for Sulu, but it would have been bad for Takei.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

He’d be kvetching even harder by now if he got the Chapel treatment.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, I adore George Takei. I really do. He came to my city about ten years ago to make a very productive personal appearance after a local politician made a very tasteless remark about Syrian refugees and how refugees from other cultures and from wars are trouble. He's one of my favorite TOS actors.

But damn, he needs to stop throwing gasoline on the fire and keeping the feud with Shatner going. William Shatner's no saint but some of this is George's own fault for being so whiny about on-set actor decisions and favoritism that happened DECADES ago and didn't really adversely affect Takei's career. He's done just fine. Shatner can be an egomaniac and was selfish at times, but a lot of other actors can also be attention hogs and place their own egos ahead of burying hatchets.

 

[VSAFaculty]

No, other way around. Fontana wrote the original Farpoint mystery and then, when it expanded to a two-hour show, Roddenberry wrote the Q parts. Fontana didn't like the Q parts, not because she disliked John deLancie or even the character of Q, but because she felt it didn't mesh with her original Farpoint story. She talks about this in her interview during Shatner's "Chaos on the Bridge" documentary.

Very interesting. I had always wondered about DCF and Q. Just never seemed like something she would write.