• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Author Habits That Annoy You

I disagree with one of her fundamental ideas of the book, that Janeway is disconnected from the dirt and grease aspect of ship work, and that she didn't have that familiarity, when Janeway was commonly seen getting down in the proverbial dirt with her crew, that we saw her being involved in the work.
Although, there was the episode Good Shepherd, where Janeway visits Deck 15, the ship's lowest deck, which she's so completely unfamiliar with to the point of needing to ask directions.
I was also really unhappy about how she'd pretty much ripped out Kira's story in Rocks and Shoals, having everything involving Vedek Yassim happen off screen, when that was one of the most compelling parts of that arc to me, the exploration of the banality of evil and how inured you get to it being surrounded by it - has become a lot more timely. I get that in attempting to get the books out timely, some corners get cut,
Well, that's just it. With those books, we were getting two books of about 270 pages each covering seven episodes. They was going to be a lot left out as indeed there was.
 
Well, that's just it. With those books, we were getting two books of about 270 pages each covering seven episodes. They was going to be a lot left out as indeed there was.

But Carey still managed to add a whole subplot that was original to the duology, as DG pointed out in the part of the paragraph you omitted in your quote. The point was that she cut out a major Kira subplot while adding a Sisko subplot.

Although I suppose it can be argued that if you're going to combine 6 1/2 episodes focusing on different characters into a single duology, it makes sense to strengthen the focus on the lead character to make it feel more unified. Still, Carey adding that "Sisko as chessmaster" subplot bugged me too, since at that point in the original episodes, Sisko was feeling useless stuck behind a desk at a starbase. That feeling of uselessness doesn't make sense if he was secretly masterminding a major operation at the time.
 
I guess he didn't like being an armchair quarterback/coach? (Or whatever the baseball equivalent is for the former.)

Well, yes, that was the point in the novel, but what I'm saying is that the depiction of Sisko's feeling of uselessness in the show wouldn't make sense if he'd been executing a major operation at the same time, as he was shown to be in the novel. It's an addition to the novel that essentially contradicts the canonical events.
 
Her "Piper" and "Captain April" novels are actually quite good, if you can set aside the hard-Libertarian politics (and the incongruity of her putting hard-Libertarian rhetoric in a Vulcan's mouth).

Her novelizations, not so much. I don't think I've re-read any of them.

When I actually have some time, I'm going to re-read her Broken Bow novelization, just to see if it's really that bad.
 
So if there's a broader term for "fanfiction-y character pairings that don't exist in the show" is, please let me know, and I'll revise my original comment.
currently "ship" (as in relationship) is the catch-all, at least in my experience
 
one of those things where i really wish it was just accepted that trek's timeline was actually different than reality's and to stop trying to reconcile them.

That works for established fans who know the history, but the established fanbase alone is never large enough by itself to make a show successful, so a new show needs to be accessible to new and casual viewers, to offer them an easy on-ramp into the universe rather than confusing them with decades of alternate history they don't recognize. Also, Star Trek was always meant to be forward-looking, to inspire audiences with a vision of an optimistic future that we could imagine was achievable if we worked toward it. Depicting it as an alternate path that diverged a generation or two ago makes it feel more detached, less an aspirational vision of our future and more just an exercise in nostalgia for a previous generation's entertainment.

Roddenberry always believed ST should update itself with the times, which is why he revamped the entire look of the universe in TMP, and why in TNG he replaced the Eugenics Wars/Third World War of the 1990s (only about half a decade ahead at the time TNG premiered) with a WWIII and "Post-Atomic Horror" in the middle of the 21st century.
 
one of those things where i really wish it was just accepted that trek's timeline was actually different than reality's and to stop trying to reconcile them.
I'm with you on this, but, as Christopher noted, that's not gonna happen.

With regards to the differing bits of info about Khan and other aspects of late twentieth, early twenty-first century history, I find the Temporal Cold War to be useful. (Even though I really disliked a lot of that storyline in ENT.) I look at it as we get different bits of the history as they "happened" at various points in the Temporal Cold War. So, at the point when "Space Seed" and TWOK took place, Khan was a warlord involved in a conflict that took place in the late twentieth century. Now, in the Strange New Worlds "present" the history has Khan's conflict sometime later, evidently closer to the mid-twenty-first century conflicts.* I also think (and I believe this comes from some things Christopher has included in some of his novels) that there's a principle underlying the way history unfolds that causes efforts to change timelines to "conform" as closely as possible to the way the timeline unfolded originally.

And yes, all that's a lot of mental effort expended on trying to make a TV franchise's fictional history make sense!

*Here's a crazy/mildly-disturbing idea: What if the Eugenics Wars/World War III had their origin in the US's attempt to make Canada the 51st state? That might help explain "Canadian Khan."
 
That works for established fans who know the history, but the established fanbase alone is never large enough by itself to make a show successful, so a new show needs to be accessible to new and casual viewers, to offer them an easy on-ramp into the universe rather than confusing them with decades of alternate history they don't recognize. Also, Star Trek was always meant to be forward-looking, to inspire audiences with a vision of an optimistic future that we could imagine was achievable if we worked toward it. Depicting it as an alternate path that diverged a generation or two ago makes it feel more detached, less an aspirational vision of our future and more just an exercise in nostalgia for a previous generation's entertainment.

Roddenberry always believed ST should update itself with the times, which is why he revamped the entire look of the universe in TMP, and why in TNG he replaced the Eugenics Wars/Third World War of the 1990s (only about half a decade ahead at the time TNG premiered) with a WWIII and "Post-Atomic Horror" in the middle of the 21st century.
i am not sure it's helpful to newbies to learn one origin and then go back and learn at least one other, and in the series *this* series is supposed to lead up to. and then have others that just keep sliding around.

dunno what the solution is, or if there ever can be one...

iirc the concept of the "stardate" was initially to avoid this, putting the original series in some ambiguous future time. but then things get sticky when you want to make historical allusions, and *do* have several major events that are formative to how the Earth of Star Trek got to be in the position it was that lead to joining the federation etc. etc. etc..., and did not happen (and hopefully won't). what does trek do if we make it past its centenniel and there still hasn't been a nuclear war? idk.

it's an interesting conundrum. while i've never really properly written out any of the stories within it, i have a sci fi universe of my own and while the bulk of it is centuries in the future, a few formative bits do
take place in this century (some of them would already be past, per timelines i jotted down 15 or 20 years ago). if i ever do properly put the narratives to paper, do i move those events, or keep them and accept that people might get put off they don't match reality?


*Here's a crazy/mildly-disturbing idea: What if the Eugenics Wars/World War III had their origin in the US's attempt to make Canada the 51st state? That might help explain "Canadian Khan."

if nothing else, not tying it to real world events might help prevent offputting author political tracts, such as has been discussed earlier in the thread... but then again, maybe not, if they are set on it and editors etc. allow it....

i think i may have rambled here and not managed to say all i meant to say, or well... i feel like i should add that to the end of anything more than a sentence long...
 
I'm with you on this, but, as Christopher noted, that's not gonna happen.

I sometimes think it would've been better if TNG had stuck with what was apparently Roddenberry's original intention of being a soft reboot, a distinct continuity with only some elements in common with TOS, instead of building stronger continuity ties after GR was gone and firming up the idea of it all as a single whole. It would've been much easier to avoid having to reconcile with TOS's increasingly dated elements, and easier to do subsequent reboots without upsetting the fanbase, since they would've gotten used to the idea of the franchise having multiple continuities.


With regards to the differing bits of info about Khan and other aspects of late twentieth, early twenty-first century history, I find the Temporal Cold War to be useful. (Even though I really disliked a lot of that storyline in ENT.) I look at it as we get different bits of the history as they "happened" at various points in the Temporal Cold War.

I was never fond of that idea, since the intent of ENT's creators was that it would lead into the 23rd and 24th centuries we knew, rather than an alternate version. But "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" canonized the idea that the TCW has altered the 20th-21st centuries, at least, so it's the reality we have to deal with now. The conceit is still that the altered timeline converges to basically the same 23rd-24th century, with the same events happening in essentially the same way (even such small details as Pike being fleet captain when he first meets Jim Kirk), but I'm willing to consider that the timeline alteration has adjusted some minor elements of the 23rd century, e.g. the tech being more advanced in certain ways.



i am not sure it's helpful to newbies to learn one origin and then go back and learn at least one other, and in the series *this* series is supposed to lead up to. and then have others that just keep sliding around.

There is no "supposed to." Entertainment isn't a mandatory experience. There's no requirement for everyone to become equally expert in the entire continuity. People can just watch the new stuff if they want and not worry about the old. As for those people who get invested enough to explore the rest of the franchise, they'd have the mindset that would allow them to keep track of its complex continuity, so there's no problem. (And "Tomorrow..." did explicitly acknowledge that the timeline had been changed, so nobody who actually pays attention is going to be confused by that.)

The whole point of a shared universe or multi-series franchise is to attract as large an audience as possible, both casual viewers who only want to see one series and more dedicated viewers willing to invest in the whole. Requiring everyone to have the same experience would limit the audience size. But it's more important to grab the novice and casual viewers, because they can't invest in the larger whole if they don't come on board to begin with, so that initial entry needs to be as easy as possible.


it's an interesting conundrum. while i've never really properly written out any of the stories within it, i have a sci fi universe of my own and while the bulk of it is centuries in the future, a few formative bits do
take place in this century (some of them would already be past, per timelines i jotted down 15 or 20 years ago). if i ever do properly put the narratives to paper, do i move those events, or keep them and accept that people might get put off they don't match reality?

I have that issue with my Troubleshooter series, whose worldbuilding is predicated on space mining and colonization taking off in the 2030s-40s. So far, it's still reconcilable -- and indeed the increasing mess the world is getting into lines up quite well with how I depicted the first half of the 21st century on Earth -- but eventually it's likely to stop fitting so well. I often wish I'd set it a few decades further ahead to begin with.


if nothing else, not tying it to real world events might help prevent offputting author political tracts, such as has been discussed earlier in the thread...

There's little point to science fiction if it doesn't have something to say about the real world. Authors have every right to make political statements in their work, and there's no reason to expect any given reader to agree with them all. My own work is strongly political and progressive, much as Star Trek itself has usually been. So it would be hypocritical of me to object to authors with other political views expressing them in their work, even if I disagree with those views. (As I do in the case of a number of writers whose work I enjoy despite their politics, including Diane Carey, Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, etc.)
 
. . . writers whose work I enjoy despite their politics, including Diane Carey, Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, etc
Indeed. I've said as much about DC in this very thread, and I've encouraged people to read her "Piper" and "April-era" novels. I think they're worth wading through the hard-Libertarian rhetoric.

Haven't read enough Larry Niven (I read The Mote in God's Eye exactly once, and found it enough of a bore to put me off both Niven and Pournelle) to have noticed his politics (but reading the Wikipedia article on him, I'm in complete agreement with you.) And I haven't read any Poul Anderson at all, and know precisely nothing about his politics (the one thing that jumped out at me from his Wikipedia article is what he died of; statistically, a man is more likely to die with prostate cancer, than die of prostate cancer).

And really, there isn't much point to any kind of fiction if it doesn't have something to say. Even if it's just pointing out some trivial absurdity of popular culture and consumerism (e.g., how can you have electronic organs marketed as "the easiest instruments to learn how to play," while cultivating the notion that real organs, with real pipes, require superhuman musical talent and training?)
 
Last edited:
There's little point to science fiction if it doesn't have something to say about the real world. Authors have every right to make political statements in their work, and there's no reason to expect any given reader to agree with them all
i wasn't saying it shouldnt have anything to say. just that there's a difference between working them in and and making it a tract or sermon, especially if one is working in someone else's boat and it feels out of place (specifically referring to the thread about diane carey that was linked, and how people there feel about the words she puts in mouths they don't think would have them)

and much sci fi distances itself from direct parallels and linkages, puts itself far away in time and space , and blurs the ones that are, specifically to avoid being tract-y

or i were or am too politically or historically or literaturely illiterate to notice

certainly i've blundered through a few things that are apparently infamous "oh nos" without registering them as oh nos, and, upon reading why they are considered oh nos, do not necessarily agree with the conclusions.

on the other hand there are book series that i have dropped hard because the authors' obsession with something completely interfered with and derailed the things that made me read it in the first place.

i just don't know if i am articulating properly...
 
i think some of it just comes down to style, and some people just don't like certain styles, which ultimately is the thrust of this thread i guess. i don't... analyze what i read the the way other people do, i suppose, and if something bothers me i either power through it because of the good parts or drop it because there aren't, and don't or can't put into words why.
 
Haven't read enough Larry Niven (I read The Mote in God's Eye exactly once, and found it enough of a bore to put me off both Niven and Pournelle) to have noticed his politics (but reading the Wikipedia article on him, I'm in complete agreement with you.) And I haven't read any Poul Anderson at all, and know precisely nothing about his politics (the one thing that jumped out at me from his Wikipedia article is what he died of; statistically, a man is more likely to die with prostate cancer, than die of prostate cancer).

As a matter of fact, even though I've read Niven extensively, I never really noticed any of the political views he seems to hold today from what I've heard. The most notable political statement I recall from his work was in "Cloak of Anarchy," which I felt was a pretty solid illustration of why anarchy can't work because it inevitably degenerates into strongman autocracy -- which also seems like a pretty effective counterargument to libertarian views.

As for Anderson, he, like Carey and a lot of other SF authors, tended toward the libertarian. But I love his lyrical writing style, his use of historical insights in writing about future history, and his imaginative hard-science worldbuilding and alien designs, all things I aspire to in my own work.
 
it would've been better if TNG had stuck with what was apparently Roddenberry's original intention of being a soft reboot, a distinct continuity with only some elements in common with TOS
Wasn't that pretty much shunted aside from the get-go, with DeForest Kelley's appearance in "Encounter at Farpoint" and then "The Naked Now" being a sequel to "The Naked Time" from TOS?
 
I can't say as I've ever seriously thought about the idea that TNG would have been better pretty much ignoring TOS continuity. I'll admit that an approach like that worked for Douglas Adams (with the radio series, the TV series, the book series, the movie, and the Infocom game existing as separate continuities), but the only vacuum I want any incarnation of ST existing in is the one just outside our atmosphere.
 
Wasn't that pretty much shunted aside from the get-go, with DeForest Kelley's appearance in "Encounter at Farpoint" and then "The Naked Now" being a sequel to "The Naked Time" from TOS?

No, because as I said, Roddenberry considered it a soft reboot, something that kept parts of TOS continuity while changing others. His view was always that Trek was a dramatization of Starfleet logs, so if he wanted to change something, he could just say (as he said about the Klingons in TMP) that the original depiction was inaccurate due to error or artistic license, and the new version was closer to how it had really been all along.

There are plenty of cases in fiction where a sequel is only consistent with the preceding work in broad strokes while freely changing details. This is quite common in TV series continuations of movies, like Stargate SG-1, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Men in Black: The Series, and the like. They acknowledge that the events of the movie happened approximately the same way in the show's universe, but with whatever changes are necessary to suit the needs of the show (e.g. Agent K never retired in the Men in Black animated continuity).

And keeping the same actor in a role doesn't prove it's the same continuity. See Judi Dench as M in the James Bond movies, or Tyler Hoechlin and Bitsie Tulloch in Superman and Lois.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top