Property rights and commerce in Trek, some musings

[UssGlenn]

So we know that the general gist of the way things work, on Earth at least, is that you are provided with a place to live, supplies and food, and you don't have to do anything in return because fusion and replication have made that so "cheap". Raffi is doing this when we meet her in Picard. But what if Raffi decides to she wants to own a vineyard like Picard? How does she get there?

I think that the "Federation credit" rather than being a traditional currency is actually more closely related to another definition of credit "public acknowledgement". All your "in public" interactions and exchange of goods and services are given a value. The more stuff you do the more credit you receive for contributing to society. You could probably anonymize the actual data after the "point of sale" so only your points are recorded and not your actual activities, if that makes you uncomfortable. They know someone bought a bagel, but they don't know who, and you got 5 credits but the two aren't connected in the system.

So a very smart computer program has figured out how to weigh what various jobs "pay" based on actual difficulty/danger/necessity rather than pure worker supply and demand, and that's your "paycheck". Supply and Demand are accounted for, however. If you are a popular artist then you get lots of credit for everyone interacting with your art and seeing your shows. And transferring some of their social credit to you if they want to bring one home (because we have to control for finite resources somehow). But remember, just the act of "buying something" generates some new interaction credit for the buyer. If your job doesn't involve a consumer your "base pay" would be higher (someone has to monitor the fusion reactor). Stay at home parents get credit, because that's a difficult job too.

If you wanted to use an anonymous medium of exchange you could, (Latinum in the 24th Century) but you wouldn't get credit for it.

So you've got a job and built up some credit, and you put in a request for larger housing/different location. This goes into a central database where you can see all available empty places in your bracket, first come, first serve (wait-lists, examination periods needed ect). You "spend" your credits to move. Building a new place somewhere uninhabited (not in a nature preserve) is also an option. Starfleet Officers end up banking their credit, because their job is so dangerous and demanding, so they have lots to use when they retire, and can get a really nice place. You can pass property down through families without using credit.

I'm sure there's stuff I haven't accounted for, but I wanted to get this written down. critiques welcome.

 

[fireproof78]

It's a fair assessment. While "post scarcity" does indeed mean you get the basics covered, there will clearly be a shortage of things that are automatically limited. There is only so much agriculture space, so much waterfront property, so much items that are, by their nature, limited.

So, a means of social exchange is important. That is where the idea of "we work to better ourselves and humanity" comes in. You can own a vineyard, but in exchange it must better the community or humanity as a whole. In this case, that benefit may be limited to the local community, or to Earth in general.

I think your credit idea makes sense, and then there is an exchange of sorts when operating outside the Federation, or with members who still use currency based economics. I think the other side for limitations may be a lottery of sorts that you can opt in to for items that are limited, like a vineyard, or a unique property.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Starfleet Officers end up banking their credit, because their job is so dangerous and demanding, so they have lots to use when they retire, and can get a really nice place.

Or in Cristobal Rios case, he gets his own small personal StarShip.

 

[publiusr]

Over time, I could see a whole planet of mining waste turned into a garden

 

[kkt]

I have some problems with passing down a very special property through a family, the later generations of whom don't have to do anything for it. At least in our world the owner is paying property taxes on it each year.

If I serve my however many years in Starfleet and retire I have enough credits for my dream property on the coast of Northern California or Oregon. But none are available because they are all passed down through families who will never want to give them up.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Some families might sell holo-simulations of their unique homes, or put a mini-holosuite in every bedroom of a mountain lodge or cottage so each person feels like they have the whole place to themselves, when in reality nobody does.

 

[Paul Weaver]

But none are available because they are all passed down through families who will never want to give them up.

That'll be people like this guy

 

[UssGlenn]

the later generations of whom don't have to do anything for it

You mean other than living there and having to keep it maintained? Besides, the scenario you resented of everything being full is unlikely. Every time someone moves into the house their parents lived in their current house becomes available.

 

[Nyotarules]

If you want to stay on Earth you wait in line for a vineyard to become available or if you cannot wait there are plenty of M class planets to choose and start a vineyard

 

[kkt]

You mean other than living there and having to keep it maintained? Besides, the scenario you resented of everything being full is unlikely. Every time someone moves into the house their parents lived in their current house becomes available.

Parents don't have more than one child?

 

[Citiprime]

I actually wonder what Earth's population might be in a situation where you had both humans moving offworld to serve in Starfleet or start colonies and probably an influx of aliens? (i.e., I wonder what United Earth's immigration policy would be in a "moneyless" economy, where you have alien species probably trying to escape from worlds where scarcity still existed to a place that's described as a "paradise" where there's no poverty?)

Also, there would have to be some standards across the Federation to have a unified economy, and standards to define value and how property is transferred. Otherwise you end up with a mess where a "Federation Credit" means different things to an Andorian than it does to a Vulcan, and if that sort of inequality existed then there would be people asking what's the purpose of a Federation Credit in the first place?

Currency exists as a store of value. The US Dollar is the world's fiat currency because people, by-and-large, believe that what a dollar will buy when they go to sleep at night will roughly buy the same amount of goods and services when they wake up in the morning.

If a Federation Credit "buys" a different amounts of "things" on Earth than what it would on Betazed, then it wouldn't really work as a currency. And if Earth has a "moneyless" economy that's moved beyond capitalism, then what is the use of a Federation Credit other than to trade with non-Federation members.

 

[UssGlenn]

Parents don't have more than one child?

Those other adult children would already be living in their own places. I want to say the population of Earth is smaller than it is now, but I'm not sure that was actually on screen.

 

[at Quark's]

Also, there would have to be some standards across the Federation to have a unified economy, and standards to define value and how property is transferred. Otherwise you end up with a mess where a "Federation Credit" means different things to an Andorian than it does to a Vulcan, and if that sort of inequality existed then there would be people asking what's the purpose of a Federation Credit in the first place?

Reasons such as this one (and the idea that I can't imagine an advanced economy based on barter being as efficient as an economy based on a universalized, abstracted value system such as money) make that I've never believed in the feasibility of a 'moneyless Federation'.

As far as I'm concerned, they never should have said the Federation no longer used money, just that no-one was interested in money as an end in itself anymore, nor as a means to exercise power or influence, but that in the Federation, money was only seen as tool to facilitate fair exchanges and compensations.

 

[Citiprime]

Reasons such as this one (and the idea that I can't imagine an advanced economy based on barter being as efficient as an economy based on a universalized, abstracted value system such as money) make that I've never believed in the feasibility of a 'moneyless Federation'.

As far as I'm concerned, they never should have said the Federation no longer used money, just that no-one was interested in money as an end in itself anymore, nor as a means to exercise power or influence, but that in the Federation, money was only seen as tool to facilitate fair exchanges and compensations.

I've always just reasoned that the "moneyless" aspect is part of the science-fiction.

Just as warp drive operates on some advanced form of science that we don't understand in the here-and-now, Earth and the Federation have some advanced form of economics that we haven't figured out yet and goes way beyond Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes lol.

 

[Tenacity]

is that you are provided with a place to live, supplies and food, and you don't have to do anything

Where did you get this idea?

Kirk sold the house we saw in Generations, so someone bought it, no "providing" happening there. Going from that example people buy and sell homes on Earth, not being provided.

Scott in The Undiscovered Country said he "just bought a boat." Money and commerce exist.

Beverly made a purchase in Farpoint, Picard made a purchase in Captain's Holiday, money and commerce exist. Quark sold a shuttle on Earth in Little Green Men, money and commerce exist on Earth.

Kasidy Yates sought out business contracts, Humans work for money, and engage in commerce.

 

[at Quark's]

I've always just reasoned that the "moneyless" aspect is part of the science-fiction.

Just as warp drive operates on some advanced form of science that we don't understand in the here-and-now, Earth and the Federation have some advanced form of economics that we haven't figured out yet and goes way beyond Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes lol.

Yes, I could live with the idea of some concept beyond money, something that has subsumed its practical function of a universal, standardized means of exchange, but can do more than we do with money today.

Not with a regression to a more primitive kind of barter economics.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Federation credits sometimes seem like something foreign aliens need to tap into Federation resources beyond charity, goodwill and fair use.

I also think that Earth gave away most of their planet to be a charter member of the Federation to be an administrative seat, since they had the least to offer an intergalactic consortium, which is why every Federation Colony we see is almost exclusively human.

Dick Bashir designed public parks... That no one built. Did he spend 4 years in school to become an architect, or did he have no formal training in the area?

If there are trillions of humans in the Federation, it's possible that less than %1 of the human Population is in Star Fleet.

 

[kkt]

Where did you get this idea?

Kirk sold the house we saw in Generations, so someone bought it, no "providing" happening there. Going from that example people buy and sell homes on Earth, not being provided.

Scott in The Undiscovered Country said he "just bought a boat." Money and commerce exist.

Beverly made a purchase in Farpoint, Picard made a purchase in Captain's Holiday, money and commerce exist. Quark sold a shuttle on Earth in Little Green Men, money and commerce exist on Earth.

Kasidy Yates sought out business contracts, Humans work for money, and engage in commerce.

My head explanation for real estate is that the poor and middle class live in decent but modest apartments. There are no homeless camps in future San Francisco, but that doesn't mean everyone has a mansion by the Presidio. But there is also a real estate market for bigger or special homes. That home on the Mendocino coast or a large ranch. That allows their value to be split up between several children in a family when the parents die, for instance. Perhaps there's also economic trade in luxury goods. Vin ordinaire is cheap but if you want the vintage Chateau Picard it'll cost you, food is cheap and no one starves, but dining at Cafe Sisko is a rare treat.

Now, Farpoint, Risa, and the 1947 United States weren't part of the Federation and definitely had money and commerce. And Kassidy Yates was trading with people outside the Federation also.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I actually wonder what Earth's population might be in a situation where you had both humans moving offworld to serve in Starfleet or start colonies and probably an influx of aliens? (i.e., I wonder what United Earth's immigration policy would be in a "moneyless" economy, where you have alien species probably trying to escape from worlds where scarcity still existed to a place that's described as a "paradise" where there's no poverty?)

Also, there would have to be some standards across the Federation to have a unified economy, and standards to define value and how property is transferred. Otherwise you end up with a mess where a "Federation Credit" means different things to an Andorian than it does to a Vulcan, and if that sort of inequality existed then there would be people asking what's the purpose of a Federation Credit in the first place?

Currency exists as a store of value. The US Dollar is the world's fiat currency because people, by-and-large, believe that what a dollar will buy when they go to sleep at night will roughly buy the same amount of goods and services when they wake up in the morning.

If a Federation Credit "buys" a different amounts of "things" on Earth than what it would on Betazed, then it wouldn't really work as a currency. And if Earth has a "moneyless" economy that's moved beyond capitalism, then what is the use of a Federation Credit other than to trade with non-Federation members.

I 100% concur, that's why there needs to be the equivalent of GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles), but used for pricing of Goods, Services, Raw Materials, the value of labor's time when working, etc.

That would have to be highly regulated.

I also think there needs to be serious regulation on Residential Property.

Limit 1x Residential Property per Adult UFP Citizen, per Resident of that Planet/Region/Country/State/County/City/Town/etc.

That would put a firm cap on Supply and not over-inflate the value of Residential Property which seems to always be in a bubble.

With the fact that people can move off world and get better Residential Properties with more land than well developed areas, there could be more options for people to live remotely / far away from the city.

The value of currency and what it exchanges for needs to also become highly regulated so that the value of UFP Fiat Currency can't Inflate/Deflate.

It should stay the same forever, that's by legislated design.

 

[Citiprime]

I 100% concur, that's why there needs to be the equivalent of GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles), but used for pricing of Goods, Services, Raw Materials, the value of labor's time when working, etc.

That would have to be highly regulated.

I also think there needs to be serious regulation on Residential Property.

Limit 1x Residential Property per Adult UFP Citizen, per Resident of that Planet/Region/Country/State/County/City/Town/etc.

That would put a firm cap on Supply and not over-inflate the value of Residential Property which seems to always be in a bubble.

With the fact that people can move off world and get better Residential Properties with more land than well developed areas, there could be more options for people to live remotely / far away from the city.

The value of currency and what it exchanges for needs to also become highly regulated so that the value of UFP Fiat Currency can't Inflate/Deflate.

It should stay the same forever, that's by legislated design.

I have my doubts you could regulate and have a planned/command economy across 8,000-light-years, especially since there would still be scarcities, like the one you bring up; real estate. Yes, there's new land available in off-world colonies, but (if we go by the way real estate works in the present-day) not all real estate is equal. A plot of land on Earth arguably doesn't have the same value as a similar area on a frozen Andoria or the deserts of Vulcan, the same way a house on a California beach has a different value than one in the middle of rural Oklahoma flat land.

One big problem with planned economies has been proper allocation of resources without a market to (in theory) regulate how much is produced and needed. The same issues would come up with anything that's specific to a certain area and can't be replicated. An obvious one is dilithium, since through Discovery we know it's a finite resource that will become limited and have a high demand.

But another issue is something like specialized services that are specific to a certain place. How about a vacation on Risa? Does it cost anything to go there? Even if it doesn't and it's rationed, it's a finite resource. There's only so many hotels, with so many rooms, and so many hours and days in a year, and so many people that can provide "services" to guests. How exactly do you ration out the equivalent of a trip to Disney (Sex) World to 150 Federation member worlds? And that's even before we get into what kind of system you would need to compliment the people who come from non-Federation worlds to visit, since Quark is able to go to Risa too in DS9.

Also, even if you are able to regulate the value of a Federation Credit within the Federation to control its value, trying to have it be worth anything beyond the Federation would become an issue.

Yes, I could live with the idea of some concept beyond money, something that has subsumed its practical function of a universal, standardized means of exchange, but can do more than we do with money today.

Not with a regression to a more primitive kind of barter economics.

This is why I think there's some new "economic" philosophy/reality we haven't figured out yet. For example, you could go with the Roddenberry concept of human nature changing that Picard touches on in First Contact, where the entire social science calculus of how humans behave in the pursuit of resources has changed so much that how people consume things don't obey present economic rules.

Star Trek exists in a universe where on Earth the world's present-day religions have lost their influence. So it's not far of a leap to go if human society has shifted so far in that aspect, why couldn't have they totally shifted in other areas like economic behavior?