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What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

There is an interesting video about the idea of gay couples since Kirk and Spock...
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One argument that I remember the people involved with Deep Space Nine made for why they didn't specifically address the normalcy of homosexuality and same-sex relationships when they did "Rejoined," and used a Trill taboo as a metaphor, is that by not specifying anything significant about same-sex relationships in depicting it is a statement in-and-of itself.

That, similar to how no one hardly ever acknowledges racial and gender differences because Star Trek exists in a future where humanity has overcome those social issues, the fact none of the characters think it strange, weird, or have a reaction to Dax considering a relationship with a woman speaks to the normalcy of a spectrum of sexuality in the 24th century, in the same way no one ever specifically is amazed by a Black man being the captain of a starship/space station or a woman being in charge of Voyager to point it out.

I do wonder if you could make the argument that maybe in the 23rd and 24th centuries the "flexibility" of sexual preferences may have expanded to the point that no one would be surprised by bisexuality? I do think the franchise overall usually assumes the heterosexuality of the characters (i.e., you never see an attractive man come on-board the Enterprise and any of the male characters show interest in a way that it has been implied to the female characters). I know Russell T. Davies made that a part of the Doctor Who universe with the Jack Harness character, where The Doctor specifically mentions that human culture in the future has become one where specific sexual preferences have become a more antiquated notion.
I'll never buy Spock in a straight relationship. Any attempt he makes is doomed to failure because it's not who he is. (Somehow the butterfly effect of the Kelvin Timeline made Spock straight over there, so we're going to shove that to the side where it belongs). Spock is gay.
I do remember when Star Trek Beyond came out, and depicted the Kelvin Universe version of Sulu in a same-sex relationship, George Takei made news when he stated that he felt the TOS version of Sulu was straight because that's what Roddenberry intended and that's how he played the character.
JMS has good reason to believe that, as he details in the video below:

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I will give him this, JMS has never claimed Berman or Piller specifically knew or stole any B5 ideas with DS9.

"I have never, *ever* felt, or believed, or thought, that Berman or Pillar EVER saw or knew about the B5 information. Had anyone suggested anything of a less than straightforward nature, they would have refused; of that I have no doubt." (JMSNews 6/19/1995)​

It's more of a general, well I had an idea to do the western first, but the other studio decided to do their own version of a western. I mean I can understand his frustration seeing his idea be rejected, and similar ideas used in something else imperiling your own show's viability, but you can't claim the entire space station genre any more than Star Trek can lay claim to every version of a "starship traveling in space" dramas.
 
When did TNG show Worf to be right with Picard and Riker being wrong? I honestly can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

I'm fine with Worf having a different POV from the other characters on the show. I just think they should've showed him as being correct more often than they did, just for variety's sake if nothing else. Him being wrong every time out just made him look incompetent and hotheaded.

Well, you're right, but also not exactly what I meant.
When Worf was pitted directly against Picard or Riker, he was usually wrong (season 1 often cartoonishly so, later more subtle).

However - there were often times where Worf conciously took the choice the others disagreed with (e.g. that stupid pain ceremony, leaving the Federation to fight in the Klingon civil war, his spine operation), simply because it's the choice during to his values and opinion.

And lastly, Worf is often enough the focus point for episodes where the episodes follow his choices (e.g. the Romulan/Klingon prisoners colony), and his choices are both in line with his character but also treated as "right".

So, while I agree with your second point, I still think he's a well rounded character that works by giving the alternative, "wrong" opinion some serious weight, because of and without losing his hero status. And while yes, it becomes a trope that he's usually wrong, it's also a much better solution than having all the characters always agree with eachother & the writers, or having an evil/stupid character (like Stargate's Senator Kinsey) being the wrong one - in both cases the viewpoint opposite to the writers often is glossed over/misrepresented/strawmanned. Having Worf there, means the opposing argument is (in theory at least) acknowledged and given serious consideration. It COULD be the right solution after all.


Also, there's this:
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I'm at the point where I don't see much point in comparing them anymore, other than they were both shows that took place primarily on space stations that aired around the same time. I can watch and enjoy both, the same way I can watch and enjoy Homicide: Life on the Street and NYPD Blue. (Although I love HLOTS way more.)

Amen times five. HOMICIDE and BLUE both revolved around the confession, or at least those they could get. But I opted out of watching BLUE's last four years as it seemed too repetitive in their fourth acts, even with Dennis Franz in the lead. HOMICIDE ran five years less, but it was mostly more innovate.....and ensemble-ish in the best sense with or without Andre Braugher. BLUE gobbled up more awards but for me felt like HILL STREET cut in half, with 50 percent less actors and plots.

HOMICIDE also had two separate excellent finales. Their official last episode was choice enough, but their two-hour final follow-up brought back everyone, and was arguably the TV reunion to end them all.

Another controversial opinion of mine: HILL STREET and HOMICIDE are the first and third finest television shows of all time, while TOS is fifth.
 
Kirk and Spock are in love with each other.

Sorry, but I see that as a misguided notion. No matter the circumstance or emotional state, Spock was unequivocally straight, not closeted or exhibiting any other state of being. His on-screen behavior is as clear as can be with his interactions with women. For example, he was genuinely interested in / flirting with Droxine from "The Cloud Minders", while his usual stoic demeanor fell away revealing his disappointment thatT'Pring chose Stonn instead of wanting him. Spock--beneath his Vulcan "face" reacted the just like any hurt guy realizing he's lost his girlfriend to another man, He was not putting on an act. He's quite straight. Where Kirk is concerned, Spock sees him as not just as his best friend, but a brother--a sentiment and character dynamic explored repeatedly throughout TOS, TAS and the TOS movies.

People can read whatever they like against the established, existing character essence, but that's the equivalent of creating an alternate universe--the characters in their true form cannot naturally fit into someone's alternate take.
 
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Well, you're right, but also not exactly what I meant.
Yeah, I didn't mean to say that was what you were arguing. Sorry if that's how my post came across. I just meant that your post sparked that thought in me. "Wait a minute... When WAS Worf the right one in the world of the show?"
However - there were often times where Worf conciously took the choice the others disagreed with (e.g. that stupid pain ceremony, leaving the Federation to fight in the Klingon civil war, his spine operation), simply because it's the choice during to his values and opinion.
True. And even in the spinal cord episode, I remember Riker saying he hated the Klingon ritual suicide thing and refusing to be any part of it.

I guess I'm just saying that TNG often automatically presented the Federation/Earth POV as the "right" one. About the only time I can remember offhand where the alien POV was presented as the more moral choice was when Picard returned the kid Jono to the aliens that raised him since infancy rather than his Earth family.
 
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I'm fine with Worf having a different POV from the other characters on the show. I just think they should've showed him as being correct more often than they did, just for variety's sake if nothing else. Him being wrong every time out just made him look incompetent and hotheaded.

Agreed; the handling of the first regular Klingon character on a ST series was screwed out of the gates. Worf was rarely, if ever taken seriously on an intellectual level, being more like the oversized, half-trained pet who needed to be talked down (by his pompous "owners") from decisions / approaches that his shipmates found to be the opposite of bright, or having the effect of the bull in a china shop.
 
It's more of a general, well I had an idea to do the western first, but the other studio decided to do their own version of a western. I mean I can understand his frustration seeing his idea be rejected, and similar ideas used in something else imperiling your own show's viability, but you can't claim the entire space station genre any more than Star Trek can lay claim to every version of a "starship traveling in space" dramas.
Well, as he says in the video, there were a lot more similarities between B5 and DS9 than them both being set on space stations, particularly in the pilots.
JMS also claims that they stole his ideas for the new Ghostbusters movie. Whatever.
So if you've been plagiarized more than once by more than one person, you've therefore never been plagiarized? :wtf: Tough to argue with that logic.
 
Agreed; the handling of the first regular Klingon character on a ST series was screwed out of the gates. Worf was rarely, if ever taken seriously on an intellectual level, being more like the oversized, half-trained pet who needed to be talked down (by his pompous "owners") from decisions / approaches that his shipmates found to be the opposite of bright, or having the effect of the bull in a china shop.
Yeah. The perfect example of that is in "Encounter at Farpoint," where Picard has to caution Worf not to shoot the viewscreen when Q appears on it. :rolleyes:
 
So if you've been plagiarized more than once by more than one person, you've therefore never been plagiarized? :wtf: Tough to argue with that logic.

Let's just say it rings a little hollow from someone who *ahem* shall we say, "borrowed very heavily from" Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings in B5.
 
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Agreed; the handling of the first regular Klingon character on a ST series was screwed out of the gates. Worf was rarely, if ever taken seriously on an intellectual level, being more like the oversized, half-trained pet who needed to be talked down (by his pompous "owners") from decisions / approaches that his shipmates found to be the opposite of bright, or having the effect of the bull in a china shop.

Yes but thankfully in DS9 Worf's character was presented much better.
It was a good idea to bring him back into Star Trek.
 
Elnor should have been a breakout character, and I don’t know why he didn’t become one.
Probably because the focus shifted from Elnor and his relationship to Picard to the whole Synth and Data and Soong thing. In my opinion, Season 1 would have been better served to focus full on the Romulans, the refugee crisis (social commentary maybe?) and Picard making peace with the failure. Elnor could become symbolic of that.

Plus, more Romulans.
 
Worf is kind of a hidden champion for me. Starts as a cartoon. Becomes "the" definitive Klingon. Only actor that's a main character in 3 (!) series and 4 movies. Dates Troi & Dax. Father figure. War hero. Solid dude. Biggest curveball in the franchise.
 
Worf is kind of a hidden champion for me. Starts as a cartoon. Becomes "the" definitive Klingon. Only actor that's a main character in 3 (!) series and 4 movies. Dates Troi & Dax. Father figure. War hero. Solid dude. Biggest curveball in the franchise.

I agree with all of this... except for father figure. He was a bad dad. We have far better examples of a father figure, like Sisko and O'Brien.
 
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