I bet the trains totally run on time on Vulcan.
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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I can see some Federation Members having alternate processes for selecting Federation Councillors; maybe one where the Federation Councillor is appointed by the Prime Minister as part of their Cabinet, for instance, with all of them being accountable to the democratically-elected Parliament.
What I can't imagine is a world being allowed into the Federation that isn't some form of democracy. Governments only have the right to hold power by the consent of the population they govern; unless you have an alternative way of obtaining the consent of the governed (like a large-scale telepathic link, for instance), elections are the only mechanism by which that consent may be obtained.
We do know there are baseline requirements for being a part of the Federation.
Sisko tells the Bajorans that if they revert to a caste system their application for membership will not be successful.
Although, on the other hand, you have a lot of weirdo colonies, like the feudal colony that Billups from Lower Decks is from, where people are living out a Game of Thrones fantasy with dragons. Whether they’re part of the Federation and have to abide by democratic values is anybody’s guess.
I suppose any Earth colonies may get grandfathered in, unless they’re overly oppressive/totalitarian. In the case of Hysperia, maybe if all of the residents are ok with playing out a ren-faire fantasy, a monarchy is tolerated by the Federation.
I think, in the context of Star Trek, the idea that elections are the only possibility for that is rather naive. I could see all sorts of ideas (which probably wouldn't work in the real world, but Star Trek isn't the real world) where a population can give or withdraw approval to its govt. without holding regular elections. Vulcan would probably be way more interested in something like that than in holding big public fights about who should be in charge at regular intervals.
I don't know if there's a canon answer to this, but I always assumed Sarek sat on the Federation Council for Vulcan (i.e., hence the reason he's able to walk onto the Federation Council floor in The Voyage Home to confront the Klingon ambassador). Since Spock also holds the title of "ambassador" in TNG, I always wondered whether ambassador is the equivalent of senator or congressman in the Federation, and maybe Vulcan has 2 ambassadors the same way a state has 2 senators in the US?
Although, that would make Spock's family similar to the Roosevelt, Kennedy or Bush families, where the Vulcans have dynastic qualities. The Final Frontier states Sybok's mother was a "Vulcan princess," which indicates the Vulcans at least at some point in their history embraced the idea of royalty. If you have royalty, then there's probably differences in class and stratification of societal status.
Although, that would make Spock's family similar to the Roosevelt, Kennedy or Bush families, where the Vulcans have dynastic qualities. The Final Frontier states Sybok's mother was a "Vulcan princess," which indicates the Vulcans at least at some point in their history embraced the idea of royalty. If you have royalty, then there's probably differences in class and stratification of societal status.
Given that at least some Federation planets send ambassadors to other worlds (e.g. Sarek, Lwaxana Troi, those other ambassadors we see in DS9: "The Forsaken") it suggests that each member planet retains its own government and legislature. I've said before that I feel the United Federation of Planets is probably a bit closer to the EU than the US in that regard, and planets retain more autonomy. Individual planets seem to be able to leave the Federation unilaterally too, which isn't the case for US states no matter how much Texas likes to think otherwise...
I always saw that as similar to congressmen and senators going to other countries on fact-finding missions.
US senators and the Speaker of the House go to other countries on diplomatic missions. Speaker Pelosi went to Taiwan on a mission I think 2 years ago. So their duties are not just to represent their districts or states in the legislature. They can also go on their own foreign policy missions.
I've toyed with an idea about an interstellar union where the head of the executive branch is actually a body comprised of 2 representatives from each species that comprise said union. These members would be appointed from among current (or former) legislators.
Likewise, one idea for how the legislation works could be that each planet sends representatives and that each planet decides how it chooses legislators. Some planets could hold elections and others could assign them by some other means.
Likewise, one idea for how the legislation works could be that each planet sends representatives and that each planet decides how it chooses legislators. Some planets could hold elections and others could assign them by some other means.
It's neither ridiculous or appalling for the same reasons the northern states in the US Civil War felt the need to enforce federalism on the South. If you join a Federation with set standards, your society has agreed to abide by those standards.
Why should we share our resources and extend the protection of Starfleet with backwards local governments that don't share our values?
It is obvious that we do allow planets with backwards local governments who don't share our values in the Federation. SEE: Vulcan.
Andoria still brags about being a violent and combative culture more than 100 years after the birth of the Federation.
This is the classic "bookkeeping solution" that ignores all core issues.
It's like the critique of Wells' utopian proposals that went "He first assumes that everyone will be satisfied with 'their share,' and then goes into great detail about whether that share will be delivered by motorcar or helicopter."
Well since Andoria took a big hit in most beta canon lore in the Romulan War, up to and including apparently being stricken by the geneplague TM, and they were always on Earth's side during and since, I'd guess that its just a 'quirk' or 'useful quantity' that the Federation embraces.
Heck, isn't Andoria's full name the Andorian Empire? I G they only have a Chancellor so in de facto it's just another sort of parliamentary dictatorship, but yea the Federation is a bit of a mix of EU and USA than either outright....
Heck, isn't Andoria's full name the Andorian Empire? I G they only have a Chancellor so in de facto it's just another sort of parliamentary dictatorship, but yea the Federation is a bit of a mix of EU and USA than either outright....
Yeah, I think it's probably safe to assume that the Kingdom of Hysperia is not a Federation Member State. They're clearly into actual hereditary dictatorship rather than constitutional monarchy.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "Earth colony." If "Earth colony" means, "settlements on a planet that were founded by people from Earth," then an Earth colony may actually consist of polities that want to be independent of United Earth and the Federation. On the other hand, if you have a colony that is legally considered to be part of the territory of the polity known as United Earth, then clearly those colonies would be part of the Federation and subject to Federation law.
Which is impossible. Human populations on the national and international scale never have that kind of consensus. Hell, there are active movements to abolish the monarchies and establish republics in every single democratic constitutional monarchy today, and those monarchies are the most ceremonial monarchies out there.
Which is why I prefaced it by saying "unless you have an alternative way of obtaining the consent of the governed." Like, yeah, if Agnes Jurati's benevolent Borg from PIC S2 join the Federation as a new Member State, I doubt those Borg would hold formal elections -- they would just use their hive mind link to determine which Borg from amongst themselves would serve in whatever office the Federation would require of them.
I think that's where you and I would not agree. I don't necessarily want Star Trek to depart from reality so fundamentally. To me, part of presenting an inspirational future means presenting ideas for how society functions that are at least somewhat plausible in terms of human psychology. Like it or not, nobody has ever found a way to obtain the consent of the governed without having people write down who they want to govern and adding up the results -- an election.
Alternately, maybe Vulcan holds elections on a regular basis but Vulcans don't treat their elections as "big public fights." Maybe coalitions form around given issues and in support of given candidates, but then the candidates regularly set aside prior electoral disagreements after results are obtained, so that elections on Vulcan proceed in a spirit of collaboration rather than conflict.
Also, the fact that it's called the United Federation of Planets pretty strongly implies its Member States retain their own governments and legislatures. Federal unions by definition share sovereignty with their constituent polities.
Just to be clear, you do realize that states in the U.S. retain their own state governments and state legislatures, right?
(Sorry, the way you worded that seemed to imply they don't.)In fairness, we don't know the legal process by which Federation Member States seceded from the UFP prior to the 32nd Century. One possible scenario is that the Federation legal process for secession requires the consent of the Federation Council, but Federation political culture is such that the Federation Council would never refuse to grant such consent if a Member State's population wanted out. DIS never canonically established if secession was unilateral or required mutual consent. But your scenario of unilateral secession is just as consistent with what we do know canonically as my alternate scenario.
Figuring out how to distribute power between a central government and its constituent divisions is an eternal balancing act that will never end. It's pretty clear that the Federation government leaves the vast majority of issues under the purview of its Member State governments since a federal union of over 150 planets could almost certainly not function otherwise. But the idea that there are no issues where the Federation would require its Member State governments to adhere to a certain standard if they want to stay in the Federation also seems implausible to me; I doubt the Federation would allow, say, Bolarus to stay in the UFP if it establishes a system of slavery.
That sounds a little bit like the Roman Republic, where two consuls would be elected to govern from among the Senate.
It also reminds me of the present-day Swiss Confederation, where the Federal Council serves as a collective seven-person head of state and government (the President of the Swiss Confederation rotating each year from among the Councillors and having no particular authority over the Council except in chairing meetings) and consists of members of every party and language region in the Federal Assembly.
That's how it worked in the Star Trek novel continuity in the books published between circa 2000 and 2021. The Federation Councillor for the Andorian Empire was appointed by the Presider of the Parliament Andoria as part of their cabinet, while the First Minister of the Republic of Bajor appointed their Federation Councillor with the advice and consent of the Chamber of Ministers, and Betazed's Federation Councillor was popularly elected.
I think it's gonna depend on what you mean by "our values." There are clearly some cultural practices that the Humans of United Earth disapprove of, but if Vulcan is a democracy that doesn't allow slavery, doesn't allow caste-based discrimination, etc., then it would appear that Vulcan and Earth would share enough values for them to Federate together.
Shras's exact words are, "My people are a violent race, but we've no quarrel with Captain Kirk." Which is a pretty vague statement. But I don't think acknowledging a greater cultural predilection for violence than in other species' cultures means they don't share certain basic values. Andorian culture could have more mechanisms for ritualized violent conflict resolution (like the ushaan) than Human culture, while still being committed to democracy, equality, and social justice.
Parliamentary "dictatorship?"
But yeah, I would infer the Andorian Empire is a parliamentary democracy of some kind and that its name is ceremonial rather than practical. That's exactly the case in the 2000-2021 novel continuity; the head of state is the Empty Throne, a monarchy that was deliberately left empty by the founding monarch who united the warring clans and ceded power to the Parliament Andoria, the legislature. The head of government is the Presider of the Parliament Andoria, who's basically the prime minister.
But they aren't classified as ambassadors though. EU member states still have their own ambassadors and send ambassadors to each other as well as other countries, and retain largely distinct legislatures except where required for international alignment on the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people. The EU itself as a political entity has envoys as opposed to ambassadors, though they're effectively the same thing to all intents and purposes.
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