What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[at Quark's]

I disagree. I'd rather watch Picard Season 2 than "Threshold". Anyone who'd rather watch "Threshold" than PIC S2, I have to question either their sanity or their honesty.

I find Threshold (somewhat) enjoyable. So I'm apparently insane

I mean, yes, there are huge problems with it, and gaps in the story most countries could fit in, but at least it entertains me, because it's so 'out there' and anything can happen, no matter how bizarre. More so than than many mediocre, formulaic episodes which give me the feeling of having to sit them out at some point ('ah right, the bad guy escapes, how predictable since there were still 25 minutes left, ah, now we get the final confrontation, guess that will take another 7 minutes').
There are VOY episodes I have far more issues with than Threshold, Fury for example.

Can't judge Picard S2, not having seen it. Still don't know what to think of S1, frankly.

 

[cooleddie74]

"Fury(VOY)" is just hot garbage.

 

[Lord Garth]

Top 10 Worst of VOY. I doubt any of my picks are "controversial", but just to back up my point of Picard Season 2 versus the worst of Voyager.

Okay...

"Elogium"
"Threshold"
"Investigations"
"Darkling"
"Favorite Son"
"The Disease"
"The Fight"
"Course: Oblivion"
"Spirit Folk"
"Fury"

Now let's pit those 10 episodes against PIC Season 2's 10 episodes.

 

[at Quark's]

^ I think not all of those are bad. I fully agree with Spirit Folk and Fury being on the list. Possibly Elogium, The Disease and Darkling too but I'd have to think about that. Not sure which episode you mean with Rising Son. Rise? Favorite Son? (I could agree with the last one being on the 'worst' list)

Personally I like the Fight for its bizarre feel and dream sequences (even though I know it isn't very 'good' in a more objective sense) and I think Course:Oblivion is actually a strong story, just with a silly premise and a downer ending.

Anyway, the job of comparing them to S2 Picard would fall to someone else

 

[Lord Garth]

^ I think not all of those are bad. I fully agree with Spirit Folk and Fury being on the list. Possibly Elogium, The Disease and Darkling too but I'd have to think about that. Not sure which episode you mean with Rising Son. Rise? Favorite Son? (I could agree with the last one being on the 'worst' list)

Ooops! I've fixed it. I meant "Favorite Son".

Personally I like the Fight for its bizarre feel and dream sequences (even though I know it isn't very 'good' in a more objective sense) and I think Course:Oblivion is actually a strong story, just with a silly premise and a downer ending.

I'm surprised that Chakotay would box, considering he thought of himself as a pacifist. And I think Boothy makes for a terrible Mickey Goldmill.

I'm in the middle of re-watching Voyager and I watched "Course: Oblivion" not too long ago. The plot wasn't bad, but the makeup as the crew deteriorates. Oh my fucking God. That made it so hard to watch that I eventually had to skip over the last 10 minutes before the Pseudo-Voyager fully dissolved. That was the type of thing where, back in the '90s, my father or uncle would've stepped into the living room and asked "What the Hell are you watching?! This is what you're a fan of?!" That actually had happened to me before, but it wasn't with "Course: Oblivion". IIRC, it was "Scientific Method" during the scene with Neelix and Chakotay in Sickbay.

 

[Farscape One]

Top 10 Worst of VOY. I doubt any of my picks are "controversial", but just to back up my point of Picard Season 2 versus the worst of Voyager.

Okay...

"Elogium"
"Threshold"
"Investigations"
"Darkling"
"Favorite Son"
"The Disease"
"The Fight"
"Course: Oblivion"
"Spirit Folk"
"Fury"

Now let's pit those 10 episodes against PIC Season 2's 10 episodes.

I would rewatch ALL of those before PICARD season 2.

And "COURSE: OBLIVION" is actually a really good episode. "THRESHOLD" is good until the last 5 minutes. "INVESTIGATIONS" isn't that bad, either.

To make it even for worst, I'd swap out those for "FALSE PROFITS", "UNIMATRIX ZERO", and "INSIDE MAN"... all terrible episodes.

 

[Mage]

I would rewatch ALL of those before PICARD season 2.

To be fair.... The concept and a lot of small elements for Season 2 of Picard were pretty good. They just completely forgot to make it connect somehow and make sense of it.
Meaning I agree that I simply can't rewatch Season 2.

 

[Lord Garth]

And "COURSE: OBLIVION" is actually a really good episode. "THRESHOLD" is good until the last 5 minutes. "INVESTIGATIONS" isn't that bad, either.

To make it even for worst, I'd swap out those for "FALSE PROFITS", "UNIMATRIX ZERO", and "INSIDE MAN"... all terrible episodes.

This is why I'll never grow facial hair.

 

[at Quark's]

Ooops! I've fixed it. I meant "Favorite Son".


I'm surprised that Chakotay would box, considering he thought of himself as a pacifist. And I think Boothy makes for a terrible Mickey Goldmill.

Well, yeah, but wasn't that part of the more general problem with Chakotay? That they didn't know what to do with him, and still needed to give him some stories, and then invented hobbies and interests on the fly to make it fit? (He also suddenly turned out to be an amateur archeologist, if I remember correctly, though I'll agree that wouldn't be quite as implausible as boxing).

I'm in the middle of re-watching Voyager and I watched "Course: Oblivion" not too long ago. The plot wasn't bad, but the makeup as the crew deteriorates. Oh my fucking God. That it made so hard to watch that I eventually had to skip over the last 10 before the Pseudo-Voyager fully dissolved. That was the type of thing where, back in the '90s, my father or uncle would've stepped into the living room and asked "What the Hell are you watching?! This is what you're a fan of?!" That actually had happened to me before, but it wasn't with "Course: Oblivion". IIRC, it was "Scientific Method" during the scene with Neelix and Chakotay in Sickbay.

I tend to weigh how good (or bad) it looks less, I think (taking into account that it probably wouldn't have been easy giving them credible makeup when they were 'melting' and they couldn't have vfx'ed the entire episode through back then in the 90's, I suppose, this isn't just a single 'Odo morphs into a door' scene of 5 seconds, after all), but I get the point.

 

[James Cole]

I disagree. I'd rather watch Picard Season 2 than "Threshold". Anyone who'd rather watch "Threshold" than PIC S2, I have to question either their sanity or their honesty.

"Threshold" was the only time I turned the TV off on a 1987-2005 Star Trek episode. The first 15 minutes are actually good, but then that cliff edge hits fast. Not only is there no saving it, but when it came time for THE ORVILLE to do it's Brannon Braga body horror fun with DNA episode I was like, NO, I'm just not watching this shit. Next episode...

PICARD season 2 is mostly salvageable in a fan edit with ADR. The roughest part to manage is likely the "hung[sic' herself" bit... which might take some kind of unreliable narrator it didn't literally happen this way, just emotionally felt this way to Picard move.

"But we're talking about entire seasons!" Okay. Then I'll take your Picard Season 2 and raise you Enterprise Season 2. At least I can stay awake during PIC S2.

TNG season 1 and ENT season 2 are likely the two weakest of the Berman era*, but there's a major difference between misfires / cringe and excessive mediocrity.

* For the more line-splitting litigious posters, yes GR was actually in control for the former season.

 

[ananta]

I'm in the middle of re-watching Voyager and I watched "Course: Oblivion" not too long ago. The plot wasn't bad, but the makeup as the crew deteriorates. Oh my fucking God. That made it so hard to watch that I eventually had to skip over the last 10 minutes before the Pseudo-Voyager fully dissolved. That was the type of thing where, back in the '90s, my father or uncle would've stepped into the living room and asked "What the Hell are you watching?! This is what you're a fan of?!" That actually had happened to me before, but it wasn't with "Course: Oblivion". IIRC, it was "Scientific Method" during the scene with Neelix and Chakotay in Sickbay.

I detest Course: Oblivion. It’s arguably the most cynical, bad taste episode of Star Trek ever made. The whole premise is simply seeing the main characters suffer horribly and die; not a sliver of hope. It’s just a horrible, nasty episode with no point other than to show suffering. If I’d been a Paramount executive I’d have fired the entire writing staff of that show several times over.

 

[Tallguy]

PIC Season 2 is just the worst Trek that anyone's made since the Reagan Presidency,

So, Wrath of Khan to The Voyage Home and TNG up through The Schizoid Man. (RIP Mr. Sheppard. I loved you in Max Headroom and Prep & Landing.)

There's probably some stuff in there that is worse than Picard S2. Probably. Maybe. None of it has Shatner. (Hah! Dodged that June 1989 bullet!) As the dreaded TNG season 1 and 2 age they are becoming less and less bad Star Trek and becoming more and more late 80's sci-fi TV. For good or ill. Even Code of Honor.

I'd say I should re-watch Picard 1-3 just to see what I think of it when I know what's coming but I still have Disco 4 to watch and I keep saying I'm going to do a TNG 30th anniversary re-watch leading up to All Good Things (and Generations).

* For the more line-splitting litigious posters, yes GR was actually in control for the former season.

"The Berman era" is correct. Even the most Ira Steven Behr seasons of DS9 are still the Berman era.

 

[Coops]

I now favour similar knitwear to a young Wesley Crusher.

 

[James Cole]

I detest Course: Oblivion. It’s arguably the most cynical, bad taste episode of Star Trek ever made. The whole premise is simply seeing the main characters suffer horribly and die; not a sliver of hope. It’s just a horrible, nasty episode with no point other than to show suffering. If I’d been a Paramount executive I’d have fired the entire writing staff of that show several times over.

I'd argue the eyeball ripping "Stardust City Rag" from PICARD (Season 1 of course) is far worse.

 

[Sci]

Even at its worst, PIC S2 has a level of character depth and nuance that is sadly lacking from the soulless, personality-free cardboard cutouts that inhabit VOY S5-7 and ENT S1-2.

 

[Citiprime]

I give Picard season 2 some slack given it was hampered by the pandemic, and they were trying to produce a television show when a significant part of the country was in lockdown conditions.

However, it really is a hot mess, and I got the feeling even Paramount realized how bad it was when they put out a trailer for the season 3 TNG reunion before season 2 was even over. It was almost as if they were begging fans to not give up on the series.

• Season 2 was hyped up as a Q-centric season, but I felt Q was largely tangential to the entire thing. It felt more like an extended cameo for John de Lancie than actually having him and Q be a central part of the season. To me, Brent Spiner's nth version of the Soong family was more involved in the story than Q.
• I thought the first few episodes with the mystery of the Borg and the Confederation of Earth were interesting, but everything falls apart once they get to 2024. It just feels like a retread of elements from The Voyage Home, "Future's End" from Voyager, and 'Past Tense" from Deep Space Nine, except done worse.
• Part of the problem is how unfocused things get once they're in 2024. They try to give all of the characters subplots, but some of them depend on characters doing stupid things to create drama in order to stretch the story out over 10 episodes. To me, Raffi's grief and anger about Elnor become just a bit too much when everyone is trying to focus in order to save existence itself.
• And there's just no flow to the story. The episode where Picard is in a coma and has to confront his childhood demons just drags every other part of the main plot to a dead stop in order to explain an aspect of the character that I don't think really adds much. Since TNG, we've known Picard is not the family type, he had an estranged relationship with his brother, and has forgone family for a career in Starfleet. Does explaining the possible psychological reasons for why all of those things exist really illuminate Picard's character all that much more in an interesting way? It didn't for me.
• Why does Tallinn look and sound like Laris? I still don't understand that.
• I know some will disagree, but I thought the actress who played young Guinan was awful. She didn't capture Whoopi Goldberg's performance at all. And I know because of schedules, COVID and everything, it probably wasn't possible, but I would have preferred they just had Whoopi do those scenes and we go with an older-looking Guinan looking how she looks.
• A good part of the ending involves a Deus ex machina (or Deus ex Q). Yes, Team Picard ensures that the launch occurs and the timeline progresses as it originally did. But once you get past that, everything else falls apart and can only be explained by "God/Q did it." How is Elnor alive in the 25th century? Q did it. If the Confederation timeline was averted and no longer exists, then how can the Borg Queen from that timeline, the ship they stole from that timeline, and Jurati's Borg Collective that was created out of her assimilation with the Queen exist in the present? Q did it.

 

[fireproof78]

Hence my problem with Q.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hence my problem with Q.

I'm lost. I thought you liked Picard Season 2.

Why does Tallinn look and sound like Laris? I still don't understand that.

Yes, you do. We all know this was really to give Orla Brady more to do. And she deserves it, because she's a good actor. I'm inclined to think, "Just go with it," and look the other way.

Season 2, as @eschaton once said, is more actor-driven than story-driven or character-driven.

Otherwise, Adam Soong and Kore looking like their 25th Century counterparts is also ridiculous. But that's not something I'm going to take issue with. So, I'm willing to suspend disbelief.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm lost. I thought you liked Picard Season 2.

Only the stuff dealing with picard's trauma and the 2024 stuff. The stuff with Q? No.

 

[Lord Garth]

Only the stuff dealing with picard's trauma and the 2024 stuff. The stuff with Q? No.

Okay, got it.