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Voyager was the best spin-off for its first two seasons

The first two seasons of Voyager are exceptional and some of the best Star Trek outside of TOS. The third season was very enjoyable as well. Unfortunately Chakotay, one of the strongest characters in the ensemble became increasingly marginalised during season 3 and was a complete non-entity by season 4. Season 4 was a sensation at the time mainly because of the introduction of Seven but despite several excellent episodes it hasn't held up as well as the first two seasons or even the third season of Voyager in my estimation. After Jeri Taylor's departure Voyager was never the same again and I lost interest during season 5. It just felt like an entirely different series with too many TNG elements shoehorned into it. The Equinox two part arc was outstanding but otherwise the final three seasons of Voyager were mediocre.

No. It was stagnant and I felt the 1st 2 seasons wasted a lot of time dealing with the Kazons; I don't recall if the Borg was even mentioned during those seasons and I would've had some fear within the 2 Voyager factions about the horrors of ever meeting the Borg. I did appreciate Kes' development of the series for a bit but then... there were ridiculous conflicts between Paris and Neelix which I thought had zero weight.

The two seasons needed more of a struggle of ethics between the Maquis and the Federation which would later formulate a compromise and their own sub-culture NOTHING LIKE that crap from "Equinox" but something reasonable. Still had hopes it would have more exploration of the human condition than a little ship, lead by it's SUPREME Captain, fighting big enemy war vessels in a large canvas where its dictated by the horrible writing.

There were some episodes Like "Night" and the Ronald D Moore episode "Survival Instinct" where I thought hints and samples of his work could've been in the right direction for the characters but I can't quantify a full season of this series because of it's inconsistency to being its own and was TNG 2.0.
 
In the 80s TNG was trying to figure out what Star Trek would be on TV after few decades.
Later series had an easier start, TOS made it all happen and then TNG had laid down the universe the new series would live in.
 
No. It was stagnant and I felt the 1st 2 seasons wasted a lot of time dealing with the Kazons; I don't recall if the Borg was even mentioned during those seasons and I would've had some fear within the 2 Voyager factions about the horrors of ever meeting the Borg. I did appreciate Kes' development of the series for a bit but then... there were ridiculous conflicts between Paris and Neelix which I thought had zero weight.

The two seasons needed more of a struggle of ethics between the Maquis and the Federation which would later formulate a compromise and their own sub-culture NOTHING LIKE that crap from "Equinox" but something reasonable. Still had hopes it would have more exploration of the human condition than a little ship, lead by it's SUPREME Captain, fighting big enemy war vessels in a large canvas where its dictated by the horrible writing.

There were some episodes Like "Night" and the Ronald D Moore episode "Survival Instinct" where I thought hints and samples of his work could've been in the right direction for the characters but I can't quantify a full season of this series because of it's inconsistency to being its own and was TNG 2.0.

I found season 1, 2 and 3 of Voyager very entertaining and exciting.

Season 1 was good, season 2 excellent and season 3 was OK even if it had more mediocre episodes than the other two.

As for the Kazon, I find them good villains and quite realistic too. It has happened many times in human history that a resistant movement has overthrown a tyrant or foreign occupant just to have their freedom ruined by internal conflicts between rivalizing factions, just lika what happened to the Kazon after overthrowing the Trabe.

The Borg weren't mentioned in seasons 1 and 2 and I'm grateful for that. I could actually have lived without them in Voyager.

As I wrote in another post some time ago, I must admit that they were really scary and dangerous in the first episodes, "Q Who and Best of Both Worlds where they were mysterious, technically superior and invincible.

However, the problem when such a dangerous enemy is created in a series, the point comes where the good guys must defeat them or they kill humanity, conquer the Earth or whatsoever.

To defeat them and stop them from achieving their goal, the good guys must come up with some super-weapon which break their superiority.

And that's it! :eek:

From that moment, the invincible, scary bad guys lose most of what made them so scary and interesting and that can never be redone. That what's happened to The Borg. After "Best Of Both Worlds" they were just another bunch of bad guys. Stil scary but not as much as before that episode.

To add more damage to The Borg, they came up with Hugh.

AsI see it, one of the worst thing to do with a former scary, invincible super-enemy is to sugar-coat them by humanizing them. Now they were suddenly reduced to the same level as any other dangerous species. Adding the Borg Queen was another nail in the coffin. In First Contact she was more like a lovesick schoolgirl out for Picard than a dangerous alien leader for an empire.

Some people claim that Voyager ruined The Borg but that's noy true. Thet were already ruined by the events in TNG which I already have mentioned. What happened in Voyager just made it worse where The Borg were over-done and became downright boring. And no, I won't go into Seven Of Nine here.

As I see it, the best Trek villains were actually the Cardassians!

They weren't as scary, mysterious and superior than the Borg but they were cunning, calculating, manipulating, cruel and ruthless. They could be your best friends one day and stab you in the back the next. OK, they fought together with the Fedration at the end of DS9 but that was not because they were humanized or domesticated in any way, more because they and the Federation had a common enemy.

Not to mention all the bad guys or at least unreliable characters they came up with: Dukat, Enabran Tain, Lemec, Evek, Seska, Madred, Garak, Marritza, Damar.

I also consider the Dominion as a better villain than the Borg. They were downright evil and genocidial, maybe with a touch of that super-villain thing that the Borg was from the beginning but at least they were never invincible from the start.

As for a possible conflict on Voyager between Starfleet and Maquis, I'm happy that the writers never went unto that path.

You just have to look at the horrible Stargate Universe to see what I mean.

One of the things that really ruined that weak series was the constand squabbling between the Military Faction and the Civilian faction on that ship. I can't remember how many episodes which were nothing more than endless and stupid arguments between them when what they really needed was to cooperate, something they did on Voyager.

Although I must admit that the maquis may have been domesticated a little too early. I would have like to se Torres a little mor rebellious for at least 4-5 episodes.

As for the Kes-Neelix relationship, it was good to start with but tehy should have broken up already in season 2, some time after the events in Parturition and it should have been domnr during two-three episodes and not as it was in Warlord when Kes breaks up with Neelix when Tieran controls her and no other explanation why they broke up.

As for the jconflicts between Paris and Neelix over Kes, I don't find them ridiculous, rather quite expected and actually entertaining.

The "Spaghetti Fight" between them was hilarious!

Not to mention this funny dialogue between The Doctor and Kes:

KES: There are some things you can't cure. Neelix and Tom Paris had a physical fight over me.
THE DOCTOR: How delightful.
KES: Delightful?
THE DOCTOR: You should consider it a high compliment. Throughout history, men have fought over the love of a woman. Why, I can quote you autopsy reports from duels as far back as 1538.
KES: That's not funny.
THE DOCTOR: It's not meant to be. You've always been interested in autopsies.

KES: On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no jealousy, no envy, no betrayal.
THE DOCTOR: Hmm. Your world must have very dry literature.

:guffaw:
 
Yes, as it was in the 90s, 00s, 10s, etc.

So it is with humans.
The 90's were a period of hope after the Cold War had ended. And then came 9/11 in 2001.
Now the "darkness" affects even the entertainment which it didn't do back then.
 
The 90's were a period of hope after the Cold War had ended. And then came 9/11 in 2001.
Now the "darkness" affects even the entertainment which it didn't do back then.
It did in my experience.

The world is only more interconnected; the same fearful things were present then too; we just didn't hear about it as much. In my experience, it was something I deliberately tried to avoid which made me less prepared for the world.
 
It did in my experience.

The world is only more interconnected; the same fearful things were present then too; we just didn't hear about it as much. In my experience, it was something I deliberately tried to avoid which made me less prepared for the world.
But back then it was at least hope that many of those thngs could be solved. I don't see much hope in this decade.
 
But back then it was at least hope that many of those thngs could be solved. I don't see much hope in this decade.
Agree to disagree, for a lot of reasons. Yes there are more problems, but there is at least acknowledgement of these things as problems, rather than being told "Tough shit; get over it." We have greater tools at our disposal to help people, as well as increasing access to these resources.

I never have felt the problems insurmountable like I did in the 90s. In the 90s it was "Hold on! We don't know what will happen!" The only hope shared was an escapist hope.

That's my experience any way. And I fully embraced that escapism to my detriment. Now, well, I have a different approach.
 
Agree to disagree, for a lot of reasons. Yes there are more problems, but there is at least acknowledgement of these things as problems, rather than being told "Tough shit; get over it." We have greater tools at our disposal to help people, as well as increasing access to these resources.

I never have felt the problems insurmountable like I did in the 90s. In the 90s it was "Hold on! We don't know what will happen!" The only hope shared was an escapist hope.

That's my experience any way. And I fully embraced that escapism to my detriment. Now, well, I have a different approach.
But as it is today, the "escapist hope" has been taken away.
Now we got all the misery and what I do call "dystopia" pushed down our throats wherever we look.
And I don't see any "greater tools to help people" today, not where I live.
 
But as it is today, the "escapist hope" has been taken away.
It has?

I guess I utilize different escapist hopes then. Certainly not the way I operate.

Now we got all the misery and what I do call "dystopia" pushed down our throats wherever we look.
You have to find the good. Which is what I do. I don't watch the news. I read different articles, and find the positive stories. My daughters shares good things from her days. We compliment our cashiers, make each other laugh, and spread kindness. Dystopia is only if people give up.

And I don't see any "greater tools to help people" today, not where I live.
Then perhaps you can be one.
 
It has?

I guess I utilize different escapist hopes then. Certainly not the way I operate.
Good for you, I hope.


You have to find the good. Which is what I do. I don't watch the news. I read different articles, and find the positive stories. My daughters shares good things from her days. We compliment our cashiers, make each other laugh, and spread kindness. Dystopia is only if people give up.

You're right about dystopia is when people give up.

I'm trying to live like you advice here. However, it's difficult when bad news are smashed into your face when yo go outside the door.

Not to mention all those scared and depressive people without hope around me who whines about everything and always except the "worst case scenario".

Not to mention when books and TV-series I've liked becomes the same, like the events which triggered our recent exchange of opinions

Then perhaps you can be one.
Which is exactly what I try to do.
But not so easy while living among those who are "graveyard people with graveyard minds" to quote an old song from one of my favorite bands.

Honestly, I don't think we come any further in this discussion and it's getting way out of topic.

I do think that we do have a lot in common despite our different views about certain events in books and series and that we are both among those who try our best to stay sane and live a happy life in the "Gray Universe" which I often call the world we live in, the opposite of the Star Trek Universe.
:)
 
Now that was really dystopian.
I've always wondered why Roddenberry came up with that scenario.
The idea is that humanity is always to survive. It's not about happiness or whatnot, but that drive to survive, to explore and to grow.

What you call gray I call learning experiences. Because otherwise it makes no sense to keep trying.
 
Now that was really dystopian.
I've always wondered why Roddenberry came up with that scenario.

Possibly because he needed a somewhat plausible 'trigger' for humans to change for the better, and even something as bad as WW2 obviously hadn't learned them to do so in real life?

(After all, the notion that first contact with aliens changed humanity for the better was only introduced by the TNG movie First Contact)
 
It no doubt also gave a type of (apocalyptic) “clean slate.” Anything seem incongruent between now and the Trek supposed future? Well, there is that whole WWIII skewing our progress.
 
The idea is that humanity is always to survive. It's not about happiness or whatnot, but that drive to survive, to explore and to grow.

What you call gray I call learning experiences. Because otherwise it makes no sense to keep trying.
Survive?
Yeah right! :sigh: But to what costs?

Living like rats in an outbombed world is not to live and such experiences don't make people better, rather worse.

And if such a world disaster had happened, it would have taken centuries for the world to be rebuilt, not the simple 50 years or so it took in the Star Trek Universe.

I've had an opinion about this for many years and that opinion is that those who are responsible for Star Trek must put certain events in it forward in time or omit them.

As we all know, there were no Eugenic Wars in the 1990's, it's doubtful that Ireland will be united in 2024 and there are a lot of things which simply don't fit together with what we have today.

OK, the easiest way could be to come up with a solution which says that henry Starlings dabbling with time travel changed history so that certain events never happened. That could be a way to simply "write around certain problems" which is my way of fixing certain errors or stupidities in the Star Trek Universe.

Maybe something I should add to the Lynxverse? :techman:
And give Starling som credit in the process. My favorite Star Trek villain!

Possibly because he needed a somewhat plausible 'trigger' for humans to change for the better, and even something as bad as WW2 obviously hadn't learned them to do so in real life?

(After all, the notion that first contact with aliens changed humanity for the better was only introduced by the TNG movie First Contact)

To believe that an even worse disaster than WWII would change humanity to the better is the worst illusion anyone could have. it would only lead to a constant fight about limited resources, a wish for revenge and more wars.

It needs something completly different, something positive.

An alien invasion by friendly aliens would probably be at better solution if that had happened

It no doubt also gave a type of (apocalyptic) “clean slate.” Anything seem incongruent between now and the Trek supposed future? Well, there is that whole WWIII skewing our progress.

Humanity seem totally obsessed with apocalyptic views and fantasies. I guess that's why the world is at it is today.

Personally I'm sick and tired of all that crap and of all the small scared people who always predict the "worst case scenario".

That behavior among humans is one reason why I call this universe "The Gray Universe".
 
Survive?
Yeah right! :sigh: But to what costs?

Living like rats in an outbombed world is not to live and such experiences don't make people better, rather worse.
Humanity has endured worse. And this is very short sighted view of humanity. How do you think we got here? To struggle to survive is at the essence of Trek but there is optimism that growth through challenges makes us better.

Viktor Frankl and "Man's Search For Meaning " discusses this at length.

Humanity seem totally obsessed with apocalyptic views and fantasies. I guess that's why the world is at it is today.
Humanity has had apocalyptic literature for millenia now.

The world is better today than when such literature was first written. Hold fast to the good, and spread it to all you see. That is the power of endurance.
 
To believe that an even worse disaster than WWII would change humanity to the better is the worst illusion anyone could have. it would only lead to a constant fight about limited resources, a wish for revenge and more wars.

It needs something completly different, something positive.

An alien invasion by friendly aliens would probably be at better solution if that had happened
.

I don't think it would either. Frankly I don't think humanity will fundamentally change, whatever happens. Seeing how humans behave in the Star Trek Universe is a bigger leap of fantasy to me than the invention of warp. A nice daydream though, and something to strive for even though I don't think it will ever happen.

But the question I was attempting to answer was not what would realistically change humanity, but why they came up with the idea of nuclear war and the post-atomic horror in the mid-21st century in the first place as a background history to the Star Trek universe.
 
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