What was Saavik's logic for being pissed at David?

[Shat Happens]

When she learned the Genesis device was made with protomatter she took a huge Vulcan dump on David like we was the 23rd century Josef Mengele. But, first, even if he was the only he was the only responsible for the protomatter of all the scientists involved (and he was not even the project head -Dr.Carol Marcus was), even if so, the Genesis device was going through several phases of scheduled, carefully controlled tests.

Also she continued with this gem:

>How many people died because of you?

ZERO, Saavik. Exactly ZERO people died because of David. Khan and Kruge killed people, not David. You were there.

And to add injury to insult, he died saving your pointy-eared ass.

I bet the green-blooded bitch never told anyone she said that.

Bones was right all the time, Vulcans (at least in TOS era) are unnerving hobgoblins

 

[Daddy Todd]

The script had David scheduled to die for his sins, so they had to invent sins and blame him for them. It's just crappy writing from ol' Uncle Harv.

 

[SidneyIsTheKiller]

The answer is in your subject: she's pissed. She's reacting emotionally to the idea that everyone has died for nothing (or worse: a weapon of mass interstellar destruction with no other benefit).

Also, the way Saavik seems to immediately understand just what a reckless decision using protomatter is leads me to believe David performed the equivalent of building an air conditioner that runs on radioactive waste or similarly obvious on the "wtf did you think would happen" scale.

 

[DonIago]

The whole point (though I admit I don't recall how clearly the films explicate this) is that Genesis won't work the way it was intended to because David snuck the protomatter into it, and that if David hadn't used protomatter then Genesis would never have gotten to the level of testing that it did.

If Genesis had never gotten to the point it had, Reliant wouldn't have been sniffing around the Ceti Alpha system, which means the major events of TWoK never would have happened and the timeline by the point of TSFS would be substantially different.

Based on that interpretation of the situation, I don't blame Saavik for being pissed off at David, though how he managed to do it without anyone else on the team noticing is a bit of a question.

 

[Qonundrum]

Pretty much.

Protomatter was used to get around some variables. Like how some artificial sweeteners that are safe are made from minute amounts of what could be used as rat poison. Or, conversely, how you and I can eat pounds of chocolate and only gain a pound or two, while you do not feed Fido a milligram of the same stuff because it kills them.

But protomatter was used for a specific intent by the scientists. Nobody expected the Genesis Device to be used on - among other things - a starship, with a planet a zillion times larger being created as a result. A planet that, surprise, surprise, became unstable and blew up by the end.

Saavik was utterly illogical and blaming the wrong person, for a situation that was so far off the mark that "blameless" takes on a new dimension of its own.

And all because the scene otherwise sets up the plot's reason for the planet becoming unstable. That still could have been set up the same without David becoming cheap and misplaced soap opera fodder.

The script had David scheduled to die for his sins, so they had to invent sins and blame him for them. It's just crappy writing from ol' Uncle Harv.

David could have been killed without the apparent need to be verbally bashed by Saavik beforehand. It's all just there for duhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrramaaaaaaaaaaaa. I like TSFS for its main themes and what works, but that Davibashing is one of a handful of ill-considered tropey tripe and tripey trope scenes that just stick out badly in this movie.

Harve Bennett had indeed done far better.

 

[Kor]

I thought the whole protomatter business was unnecessary character assassination against David. The planet's instabilities could have boiled down to "Genesis was supposed to be used on a big, solid planetoid that already existed, not a little starship in the middle of a nebula."

Kor

 

[Qonundrum]

The answer is in your subject: she's pissed. She's reacting emotionally to the idea that everyone has died for nothing (or worse: a weapon of mass interstellar destruction with no other benefit).

Also, the way Saavik seems to immediately understand just what a reckless decision using protomatter is leads me to believe David performed the equivalent of building an air conditioner that runs on radioactive waste or similarly obvious on the "wtf did you think would happen" scale.

Saavik and emotions - the original idea was that she was half-Romulan, but that was dropped. STII only shows her as Vulcan, and continued in III as such. It would have made more sense if she knew the facts. She comes across, ironically, as being human, because she's going off on emotion and not logic.

It's also bizarre how David did not refute Saavik's berating. Maybe he was taken so aback.

Or it's just bad scripting.

It's still a cool subversion that TSFS takes the (inadvertent) use of Genesis on a starship, rather than a planet, but expands on it as a theoretical WMD for discussion - it also expands the Klingon plotline and lore, albeit out of perceived paranoia, and also culminating with STIV and STVI. Kruge and co. not having its secrets and ultimately never getting them ensures that the protomatter discovery wasn't found (as quickly or at all) by these other adversaries. Or they discovered it but blundered and stopped using it as a result.

I thought the whole protomatter business was unnecessary character assassination against David. The planet's instabilities could have boiled down to "Genesis was supposed to be used on a big, solid planetoid that already existed, not a little starship in the middle of a nebula."

Kor

^^this. Along with the tiny ship and its antimatter, nebula gasses, where the shiny new sun that the new planet orbited came from, how many other unknown variables were in play? (Did the torpedo create the entire new solar system in the middle of nowhere?! The Reliant is seemingly at the epicenter of it all, so that's where the planet is... but not the star the new planet is orbiting.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So Saavik is pissed. Can you blame her?

And yeah, she is Vulcan, but she's not a kolinahr adept. So she still has emotions, and can still display them when the situation calls for it.

We've seen Spock get emotional many times. And Sarek is also infamous for his temper. So this is hardly the first time.

 

[Tosk]

STII only shows her as Vulcan,

Who cries when sad. Deleted subplot or not, Saavik was established as a person who shows her emotions sometimes.

 

[DonIago]

Yeah, I don't agree that she was shown as being strictly Vulcan in TWoK, and found it disappointing and a misstep on Leonard Nimoy's part that she was pushed more in that direction for TSFS.

 

[SidneyIsTheKiller]

Who cries when sad. Deleted subplot or not, Saavik was established as a person who shows her emotions sometimes.

Yep. This is a point of continuity between STII & III: Saavik is hot-tempered for a Vulcan with a particular distaste for duplicity. It suggests they actually haven't completely reimagined her character and implies development between the two films: Saavik has been working on keeping her passions in check, and we can still see it beneath her cool Vulcan veneer at times.

It's also bizarre how David did not refute Saavik's berating. Maybe he was taken so aback.

Or it's just bad scripting.

David doesn't get defensive because he sympathizes with Saavik and feels guilty. Saavik could tell David knows exactly what's going on with the planet. He's not surprised with the outcome, which suggests it wasn't particularly unlikely

Note how Saavik is appalled at the very mention of protomatter. Every scientist has denounced it. It is unstable, it is unethical, it is dangerous. You Do Not Use Protomatter. The implication is that the device more than likely wouldn't work and even if it somehow did you wouldn't be able to reproduce the results with any consistency. No one in their right mind would live on a planet made from protomatter.

David knew from the beginning Genesis could be used as a weapon of apocalyptic proportions - the Federation went along with it for the proposed benefits, but those benefits were essentially a fraud. David decided to put everyone's lives on the line for a complete hail mary miracle pass that he was probably still hoping to get away with or even be given another crack at it, considering Saavik has to personally confront him to get him to confess.

All of Saavik and David's colleagues have just been blown away and they themselves are being actively hunted on a planet that's about to explode (to say nothing that this may all eventually lead to a galactic war), and it's all happening because David lied to everyone about what he could deliver. No, David shouldn't be charged with murder, but I say an extremely stern talking-to is absolutely warranted.

You could say I'm making a lot of conjecture in all the above, but the way movie allows and invites such conjecture is a sign of very decent scripting, IMO.

Kruge and co. not having its secrets and ultimately never getting them ensures that the protomatter discovery wasn't found (as quickly or at all) by these other adversaries. Or they discovered it but blundered and stopped using it as a result.

Say, how DID Praxis explode, anyhow? Lol!

I thought the whole protomatter business was unnecessary character assassination against David. The planet's instabilities could have boiled down to "Genesis was supposed to be used on a big, solid planetoid that already existed, not a little starship in the middle of a nebula."

David's character arc aside, the profound moral and political implications of the Genesis device are a collective thread the movie is obligated to at least suggest a resolution to before it's over. You could say protomatter is a rather easy and contrived one, but man, we already got a multi-film saga from a Genesis device that doesn't work, you could probably base an entire separate sci-i franchise around a Genesis device that DID work!

 

[DonIago]

Say, how DID Praxis explode, anyhow? Lol!

There's a Myriad Universes novella....just sayin'...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah, I don't agree that she was shown as being strictly Vulcan in TWoK, and found it disappointing and a misstep on Leonard Nimoy's part that she was pushed more in that direction for TSFS.

I'm sure that was very conscious on Nimoy's part. Spock coming back is less of a big deal if there's new, young, sexy lady Vulcan who also struggles to control her emotions on the Enterprise. So Saavik became a much more standard unemotional Vulcan in STIII to compensate.

 

[Set Harth]

Say, how DID Praxis explode, anyhow? Lol!

It was Bandicoot Cabbagepatch!

oops, wrong universe

 

[Timewalker]

^^this. Along with the tiny ship and its antimatter, nebula gasses, where the shiny new sun that the new planet orbited came from, how many other unknown variables were in play? (Did the torpedo create the entire new solar system in the middle of nowhere?! The Reliant is seemingly at the epicenter of it all, so that's where the planet is... but not the star the new planet is orbiting.)

They were in the Mutara Nebula. Nebulae contain the materials required to form stars. This normally takes in the millions of years to happen, but Genesis condensed this down to a matter of hours.

So no, I don't think Genesis created the raw materials for the new solar system, but it did speed everything up in a hell of a hurry.

Yeah, I don't agree that she was shown as being strictly Vulcan in TWoK, and found it disappointing and a misstep on Leonard Nimoy's part that she was pushed more in that direction for TSFS.

I prefer Saavik as she was written in the novel adaptations. She was an interesting character in TWOK.

What we got in TSFS was a cardboard cutout reciting lines. Even Tuvok showed more emotion than this blander-than-watching-paint-dry version of Saavik, and he's a Kolinahr graduate!

 

[Phoenix219]

There very well could have been a small star already in the nebula, or near the nebula. I've always figured realistically, Genesis couldn't have formed more than the planet, and even that is stretching it.

 

[DonIago]

I prefer Saavik as she was written in the novel adaptations. She was an interesting character in TWOK.

What we got in TSFS was a cardboard cutout reciting lines. Even Tuvok showed more emotion than this blander-than-watching-paint-dry version of Saavik, and he's a Kolinahr graduate!

The TWoK and TSFS novelizations were fantastic; I believe I read the latter before seeing the film, which made the film feel kind of disappointing by comparison.

The TVH novelization was, IIRC, good as well, but not quite on the same level.

I thought it was very disappointing when the novelizations started adhering more strictly to what was on the screen, though the GEN novelization (at least the first release of it?) did have the novelty (pun intended) of depicting Kirk's original manner of death.

I'll never entirely know how much of Curtis's performance is on her vs. Nimoy, but I recall in the commentary she specifically mentions Nimoy telling her to go colder with the character, and that...I understand what he was going for, but I think he got it wrong here.

 

[Timewalker]

I'll never entirely know how much of Curtis's performance is on her vs. Nimoy, but I recall in the commentary she specifically mentions Nimoy telling her to go colder with the character, and that...I understand what he was going for, but I think he got it wrong here.

He got it colossally wrong.

At the time this movie was released, I had a subscription to a letterzine called Interstat. It was like a Star Trek forum would be here, except you only got updates once a month when the new issue came out. Fandom was done via snailmail back then.

People were definitely talking about TSFS, and not in a good way. I can't think of anyone who was happy about how Saavik went from interesting to boring, wooden, and a lot more similarly-negative adjectives. I remember one person referring to Curtis as an "ugly, talentless actress."

Well, that's one way to put it. "Ugly" is in the eye of the beholder, and of course with Vulcan makeup we didn't get to see what she really looks like. But I didn't argue with the "talentless" adjective. As mentioned, if Tim Russ could inject emotion into a Kolinahr graduate while still keeping things on a level tone, that proves that logic doesn't have to equal "more boring than watching paint dry."

There very well could have been a small star already in the nebula, or near the nebula. I've always figured realistically, Genesis couldn't have formed more than the planet, and even that is stretching it.

Star formation is messy and often chaotic, especially when planets are part of what forms. It doesn't happen where one moment you've got a lovely, quiet nebula, and then BOOM, a solar system forms.

As I mentioned, the Mutara Nebula would have had the required hydrogen and helium and whatever else to make at least a small star. But it's a process that normally takes a long time.

I never suggested that the Genesis device created the raw materials. They were already there. What Genesis did was give the process a major kickstart, to the point that what should have taken millions of years only took a few hours.

 

[DonIago]

^Except that if Curtis acted the way Nimoy directed her to act then it's really not her fault.

 

[Dee1891]

Saavik and emotions - the original idea was that she was half-Romulan, but that was dropped. STII only shows her as Vulcan, and continued in III as such. It would have made more sense if she knew the facts. She comes across, ironically, as being human, because she's going off on emotion and not logic.

Vulcans are emotional like everyone else. Only they spend their lives suppressing or trying to suppress their emotions. There are rare instances in which they do not succeed.