The Gorn…
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
Well, its been fourty-three years or so since it came out, so I could be wrong, but from what I remember, it was more than three years. Why in the world would James T Kirk be saying gallivanting around the galaxy is a job for the young, if he was on the low side of forty? He was the "baby" Captain at 34 or so. And five years after that, plus three years is still very young. I could be misremembering. But I thought the time elapsed was supposed to be roughly the time between TOS and TMP.
That line about "the young" was in TWOK not TMP.
When TMP was initially being developed the general idea was they would acknowledge the actors' ages and TMP would be set maybe ten years after the 5-year mission of TOS. But somewhere along the way they changed their minds and decided TMP would be about three years after TOS. TWOK makes reference about Kirk not having seen Khan for fifteen years. That puts TWOK roughly about nine years after TMP.
Then again TWOK comes off as something of a reboot ignoring TMP because we're again revisiting the idea of Kirk beig unhappy and desk bound.
I can't remember if that three years after the series ended bit was mentioned in the film or not? I thought it was more three years since the Enterprise had been restructured! I mean if it is three years between series and TMP then why is there fifteen years between WOK and Space Seed? 
JB
JB
It could also be that he served as Captain or Admiral on another ship after the Enterprise mission ended and due to whatever reason that vessel returned early or didn't has been stuck on a Starbase ever since! 
JB
JB
I don't remember the "changing their minds" part, but again, it has been over 40 years since TMP came out and maybe they did change it to three years instead of 15. What made me dislike it, (besides the tedious 2001 type effects) was the lack of continuity of character. Kirk changed from an "able to maneuver his way out of anything space could throw at him" to a shell of himself, who got out maneuvered by desk bound paper pushers into becoming one himself. Spock forgot all he learned in his years in Fleet of his dual nature and the strengths of acknowledging himself as he is, to try an become a non emotional (and we know Vulcans HAVE emotions, that's why they have to control them) Kohlinar Vulcan, with NO explanation for this severe change in character. Even in subsequent movies, he was still so often wooden, as if he had forgotten how to play Spock. The byplay between the three (Kirk, McCoy and Spock) suffered because he often was too wooden for it to really flow. And Kirk always seemed so apologetic and maudlin, something he honestly was rarely if ever. One thing Kirk had was the strength of his convictions and little apology. It's what made him a leader. And I know they wanted the original series characters in the movie, but lets face it, Sulu and Chekhov would have moved on. Uhura too most likely. For those that love the movies, (and the subsequent series) more power to you. I just never liked them as I loved TOS. Not trying to be contentious. I was just largely unimpressed by the movies. And I realize the actors had moved on and perhaps forgotten the nuances of their characters but maybe they should have watched a few episodes before stepping on the soundstage again.
Whether Roddenberry's novelization of TMP can be considered canon is up for debate. But the book does explain certain things that aren't in the film at least in any obvious way.
The book explains Kirk was mentally tired when the Enterprise returned. Admiral Nogura was facing a public relations problem on Earth with Starfleet under heavy criticism by the population of "new humanity." Nogura seized at the opportunity to use a proven Starfleet hero (Kirk) to repair Starfleet's reputation. In this respect he certainly wasn't thinking of what was best for Kirk as a valued Starfleet officer and as an indivdual. So he maneuvered Kirk into accepting a promotion and sold it to him as the great new challenge. If Kirk had been totally on his usual game it likely wouldn't have worked, but in the drained state his was in he was just maleable enough. And Nogura also essentially pimped out a female Starfleet officer to tempt Kirk even further. In short Nogura was a bastard.
None of that is in the film. And nowhere in the film or the novelization is there any mention of a 15 year time spane. It's just not there. A 15 year time period is mentioned only in TWOK.
The book explains Kirk was mentally tired when the Enterprise returned. Admiral Nogura was facing a public relations problem on Earth with Starfleet under heavy criticism by the population of "new humanity." Nogura seized at the opportunity to use a proven Starfleet hero (Kirk) to repair Starfleet's reputation. In this respect he certainly wasn't thinking of what was best for Kirk as a valued Starfleet officer and as an indivdual. So he maneuvered Kirk into accepting a promotion and sold it to him as the great new challenge. If Kirk had been totally on his usual game it likely wouldn't have worked, but in the drained state his was in he was just maleable enough. And Nogura also essentially pimped out a female Starfleet officer to tempt Kirk even further. In short Nogura was a bastard.
None of that is in the film. And nowhere in the film or the novelization is there any mention of a 15 year time spane. It's just not there. A 15 year time period is mentioned only in TWOK.
I got and read the novelization at the time, and I might still have it somewhere, but not handy. I don't disagree with your statements. All I can say, is that they didn't wash with me as a Trek fan. For those of us that kept the flame high during the 15 or so years between the end of TOS and TMP, writing stories, going to conventions, celebrating the series, what we (or at least I) did not expect was a washed out shell of a Kirk and a Spock who forgot or at least rejected who he had learned he was.
The other issue that caught some fans offguard is that they expected everything to pick up from where they left off in TOS, in terms of character. But Roddenberry wanted to be a bit more realistic and depict these characters as having been apart for a few years and needing to get back into their groove. In that sense it's more realistic than pretending as if no time had passed and nothing had changed for the characters.
Another thing contributing to the characters feeling or sounding off was the rushed sound mixing for the film to meet its December 1979 release. The sound was not edited properly which left a lot of the dialogue sounding rather flat. If nothing else the recently released 4K Director's Edition fixes the audio throught the film. Now the characters all sound like themselves and you hear nuance in their delivery that just wasn't there before. You also hear a lot of background noises that just weren't audible before. It's quite a change and quite eye opening. Now they sound like the characters we knew and loved.
Another thing contributing to the characters feeling or sounding off was the rushed sound mixing for the film to meet its December 1979 release. The sound was not edited properly which left a lot of the dialogue sounding rather flat. If nothing else the recently released 4K Director's Edition fixes the audio throught the film. Now the characters all sound like themselves and you hear nuance in their delivery that just wasn't there before. You also hear a lot of background noises that just weren't audible before. It's quite a change and quite eye opening. Now they sound like the characters we knew and loved.
Last edited:
I don't think I've seen a recently released Director's cut. So I'll keep my eyes open for that.
Re the personality changes, sure everyone changes with time, but this was a complete 180 to those characters for me. And from what I remember, regardless of what the novelization said to justify it, the film did little to nothing to explain to returning fans why these characters had so drastically changed.
Re the personality changes, sure everyone changes with time, but this was a complete 180 to those characters for me. And from what I remember, regardless of what the novelization said to justify it, the film did little to nothing to explain to returning fans why these characters had so drastically changed.
I don't know if it was ever filmed, but the confrontation between Kirk and Nogura at the beginning would have been something to see, and it could have explained some things not explained elsewhere. But I understand why it wasn't included because it would have kept Kirk from getting to the Enterprise sooner in the film. Too bad it couldn't have been a deleted scene.
It's also never explained why Spock left Starfleet to seek kohlinar. Maybe something specific happend near the end of the 5-year mission or during the three year downtime that prompted the decision. McCoy's departure is explained in the book as him resigning in protest seeing Nogura force/manipulate Kirk into a position he normally would not accept.
It's also never explained why Spock left Starfleet to seek kohlinar. Maybe something specific happend near the end of the 5-year mission or during the three year downtime that prompted the decision. McCoy's departure is explained in the book as him resigning in protest seeing Nogura force/manipulate Kirk into a position he normally would not accept.
Last edited:
This is my main mark against the film. Kirk, in any other story, would be the bumbling, incompetent, outside officer, like Stocker, to Decker's captain.
If they thought the actors had aged so little that they could make it a mere three years between the end of TOS and TMP, (and they, IMHO, could not pass that test), then they should have done an end of mission script, with Nogura scheming, and Spock having some issue with that or something to take him off to Vulcan, and McCoy being furious about both and planning to wash his hands of Fleet, THEN have a major crisis blow up in the middle of this and send the Enterprise off to go after Vger. That would have had lots of sturm and drang (the Enterprise returning after the mission, the uncertainty, the fireworks of the scheming, Spock deciding to abandon all he'd learned and loved in Fleet), lots of heart rending, lots of fireworks, and then the action to convince Kirk and Spock (and Nogura) that they belonged on another five year mission. That would have been a pretty good film.
All this talk about how you had to read the novelizations to understand key plot points reminds me of Disney's lame attempts to get people to buy similar products to explain their plots. Anyway, I read the TMP novelization. The film's characterizations still did not mesh, to me, with the characters as they were in TOS or any real logical progression of their characters going forward.
All this talk about how you had to read the novelizations to understand key plot points reminds me of Disney's lame attempts to get people to buy similar products to explain their plots. Anyway, I read the TMP novelization. The film's characterizations still did not mesh, to me, with the characters as they were in TOS or any real logical progression of their characters going forward.
No, that's not necessarily what I wanted. What I expected was a film that made some kind of sense. There's no sense in the film's characterizations as a logical extrapolation of what should have happened after the five year mission. Kirk wasn't old. He was too valuable a commander to waste in a desk job. Spock learned too much and was too self aware to jettison all he had become after all those years in fleet, to go to purge all his knowledge of himself. To ignore cogent arguments to the film by saying "oh, the fans wanted X and the producers or writers or showrunners wanted Y is a lame argument. Most of those showrunners or producers (not all, but most) either didn't watch TOS or in more recent cases, deliberately set out to bash the original core audience. Roddenberry had a good idea with TOS, but his writing wasn't always the best and TMP was flawed in many ways. There's a lot of credit to Trek's success in Coon and Fontana.
But the fans wanted X and the producers chose to do Y is exactly what happened.
In all candor it’s far more believable that people drift off onto other paths in life than stay together serving on the same ship for decades.
I love TMP. With the 4K DE it’s my favourite Trek film. It’s certainly aged better the rest. But even though it’s now the film that should have been released in 1979 it’s not perfect and I can still criticize it, but thats not the point of this thread. If you want to critique TMP then the movie forum is where to do it.
In all candor it’s far more believable that people drift off onto other paths in life than stay together serving on the same ship for decades.
I love TMP. With the 4K DE it’s my favourite Trek film. It’s certainly aged better the rest. But even though it’s now the film that should have been released in 1979 it’s not perfect and I can still criticize it, but thats not the point of this thread. If you want to critique TMP then the movie forum is where to do it.
Last edited:
Some 50 years ago I wrote a post five year mission novella, where Kirk moved onto a larger experimental explorer ship and Spock stayed to captain the Enterprise. So, I certainly could expect something different than the same crew staying on the ship for decades (several replies above I replied that the junior crew should have moved on, it was ridiculous to keep bringing them back in the same positions. They could have included them for fan service in other positions in Fleet). Again, the fan disappointment in TMP was quite often that it was a poor and in many cases implausible script.
That they chose not to explain what happened during the previous three years is not a serious flaw of the film, but your personal disappointment. And you’re entitled to that.
I can break down the ways TMP works and where it misses. But the real issue is many fans, particularly after Star Wars in 1977, wanted a Star Trek feature film more like “The Doomsday Machine” or “Balance Of Terror” than what we got. Subsequently we got TWOK three years later which was more in tune with what fans wanted. That TWOK makes less sense than TMP in so many ways is another discussion. These past several years I can’t be bothered to rewatch TWOK-TUC—they just work me anymore.
I can break down the ways TMP works and where it misses. But the real issue is many fans, particularly after Star Wars in 1977, wanted a Star Trek feature film more like “The Doomsday Machine” or “Balance Of Terror” than what we got. Subsequently we got TWOK three years later which was more in tune with what fans wanted. That TWOK makes less sense than TMP in so many ways is another discussion. These past several years I can’t be bothered to rewatch TWOK-TUC—they just work me anymore.
Similar threads
