Is Starfleet Military?

[Richard S. Ta]

Number of times Riker's dropped everything else to go to war: Possibly never. Was the Enterprise even in the Dominion War?

How many times did Riker say 'open fire' or 'raise shields' or similar though? He may not have directly gone to war but he frequently responds to or commits acts of aggression as part of his job.

He is a Trombonist, by nature of playing Trombone. However, professionally (in TNG) he holds the rank of Commander. He's a military officer first and foremost.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

If it's his job that defines who he is first and foremost, not the other things he does, then surely Starfleet would be primarily defined by all the scientific, diplomatic, and exploration work they spend most of their time doing, not by the military actions they perform on occassion when the situation requires it.

That's why I think it's slightly misleading to call Starfleet a military in the way they exist today, even though they're blatantly the Federation's military. It's an aspect of what they are, it's not the totality of what they are.

 

[fireproof78]

If it's his job that defines who he is first and foremost, not the other things he does, then surely Starfleet would be primarily defined by all the scientific, diplomatic, and exploration work they spend most of their time doing, not by the military actions they perform on occassion when the situation requires it.

That's why I think it's slightly misleading to call Starfleet a military in the way they exist today, even though they're blatantly the Federation's military. It's an aspect of what they are, it's not the totality of what they are.

They do all of it. Kirk's combined service comment applies.

The point is Starfleet is a military. In combination with other tasks.

 

[nightwind1]

Yeah, not really as the US Coast is transferred to the Department of the Navy during wartime (individual units or even personnel are regularly transferred back and forth during peacetime as well). Coast Guard cutters are more than capable of carrying out their wartime role without direct tactical or operational control by the US Navy, but neither the Treasury or Homeland Security can cut orders for units to deploy overseas (particularly within sovereign waters of another nation), but Defence can.

Former USCG Petty Officer Third Class here...

Can confirm.

Semper Paratus

 

[thewanderingjack]

If it's his job that defines who he is first and foremost, not the other things he does, then surely Starfleet would be primarily defined by all the scientific, diplomatic, and exploration work they spend most of their time doing, not by the military actions they perform on occassion when the situation requires it.

That's why I think it's slightly misleading to call Starfleet a military in the way they exist today, even though they're blatantly the Federation's military. It's an aspect of what they are, it's not the totality of what they are.

Calling military, or Starfleet, service "a job" is misleading. People enlist. They attend long term specialized training (the academy). They receive commisions. Caling committing to life on a starship and being on-call a job is completely incorrect.

Commander is not his job, it is his rank and position. His "job" is first officer. He could do a different job and he'd still be a commander. Could he be a commander janitor? No. There's different classifications. But there is (I'm sure) a Starfleet official list of jobs he could do while being commander.

Also, really, it's not the job, or title. Officially, it would be whatever the earth government's establishing documents regarding Starfleet say, or the Starfleet Charter... there may be something about it in the articles of the Federation.

Officially, in-universe, it's never said.

But, again, officially, universally, a "court martial" (which is archaic for "martial court," where martial means, literally, military) is strictly for military personnel and run by whichever military organization that person belongs to.

 

[jaime]

No, you keep trying not to say they are... you *did* say that waging war is the purpose of a (any) military... and so we are back... if the purpose of a military is waging war, and that is (among other things) what Starfleet does, then it is a military. Again, how much militarying does an armed forced have to do to *be* a military?

An apple is mainly food... but I can still beat you to death with one, so it can also be a weapon, if only while I am using it that way. So, if nothing else, when Starfleet is engaged in war, or battle, they are being both military and A military force.

Historically, inumerable expeditionary forces were military... because a military explorer can do anything a civil one can do, and is trained in combat... civil explorers *might* be, but if you were going to run into the Hirojan, who would you want, a civil botanist, or an "army" one, who is fully combat trained?

If General McDonalds could order Sue or any other subordinate to open fire on you with an automatic weapon, or drop an atomic bomb on you, I bet you'd think it was military then... because it's not one thing, it's all of it.

Ronald cannot put Sue in the brig for an offense, bring charges against her (the charges being different, as military criminal law is different than civilian criminal law) and have her court martialed... where her trial is presided ONLY by McDonalds personnel, without a jury (there *can* be a similar group composed only of that service branch members, and they have diffrent rights and responsibilities from a civilian jury) and then have her thrown into a McDonald's jail... I'd certainly call that a military, even if they serve fries with that.



Except a SAK is actually still, today, a military knife: designed, owned and manufactured under control of the Swiss Army, and it is part of their field kits.

It is NOT a combat knife, not every military knife is.

Meanwhile, back to a small but very salient point: court martial (aka "military"... like, martial arts), which is both the criminal proceedings undertaken by a military against one of it's service personnel, and the place where those proceedings take place. This is an exclusively military term, as it is entirely a military process. Civil laws do not apply. Civil punishment does not apply.

All that to say... every Starfleet member who commits a crime is tried by Starfleet via court martial. Kinda puts a bow on the whole thing.

Why are you guys so opposed to Starfleet being perceived as military/a military?

So is Starfleet an Embassy? Taxi Service? Baseball team? Hotel? Rescue Service? Astronomer?

It is not any one thing by the standards of our time. Court Martial is just something it inherited as handy for the job, when it was based on a military organisation. A justice System that is portable for on the Frontier.

Starfleet is Starfleet.

And SAK became a colloquialism long ago, meaning that which does many things. Switzerland tends to avoid wars, and is good at marketing.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

If it's his job that defines who he is first and foremost, not the other things he does, then surely Starfleet would be primarily defined by all the scientific, diplomatic, and exploration work they spend most of their time doing, not by the military actions they perform on occassion when the situation requires it.

I think you misunderstood me. It's not Riker's job that defines him first and foremost. Obviously he is a human first and foremost. I'm not defining Riker, I'm defining his role and position aboard the Enterprise. He is not there primarily to play trombone. His primary role is to act as First Officer within a military command structure.

That's not who he is, but it is what he does (primarily).

 

[ProwlAlpha]

So is Starfleet an Embassy? Taxi Service? Baseball team? Hotel? Rescue Service? Astronomer?

Yes, prior to the professionally diplomatic corps that we have today, Ambassadors were typically high-ranking military officers. Taxi Service? The Military Sealift Command and Janet Air would like a word to you. Baseball team - Midshipman Baseball! Hotel - so many, especially if you are just stopping at an air base for a day or two due to the plane issues. Astronomer- i guess we can ignore charting by the stars.

 

[jaime]

Yes, prior to the professionally diplomatic corps that we have today, Ambassadors were typically high-ranking military officers. Taxi Service? The Military Sealift Command and Janet Air would like a word to you. Baseball team - Midshipman Baseball! Hotel - so many, especially if you are just stopping at an air base for a day or two due to the plane issues. Astronomer- i guess we can ignore charting by the stars.

I am not quite sure those things define those organisations, which is the point. XD

 

[ProwlAlpha]

I am not quite sure those things define those organisations, which is the point. XD

My point, is that Starfleet does all of those things just like the major terrestrial navies have done. So waging war is not the only thing a military does, in fact peace time and non-combat missions make up the majority of what they do.

 

[jaime]

My point, is that Starfleet does all of those things just like the major terrestrial navies have done. So waging war is not the only thing a military does, in fact peace time and non-combat missions make up the majority of what they do.

Before many countries moved to standing armies, they were mostly farmers pressed into service. This does not mean that militaries are farmers.

I understand that militaries do more than wage war.

In the case of Starfleet it’s pretty explicit that they are not a military, but an exploration and scientific organisation that also does military work when needed. Rather than the other way round. It’s why Picard says ‘does anyone remember when we used to be explorers’ as opposed to ‘does anyone remember when we used to be soldiers’ or similar.
Ex Astris Scientia. Right there on the floor.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the case of Starfleet it’s pretty explicit that they are not a military, but an exploration and scientific organisation that also does military work when needed.

If it does military work, then it is military.

People keep thinking that all a "pure military" (whatever the hell that means) ever does is fight. But real militaries are involved in scientific work, and yes, exploration as well. Does that make them LESS military? Hell no!

I think a more accurate spin on things would be, Starfleet is military, just not militaristic.

 

[Kor]

Yes, the comparison has been made... I'm not sure if in this thread, or one of the other innumerable threads on this exact same topic, with the "Age of Sail" in which naval vessels were doing lots of exploration, scientific discovery, setting up diplomatic ties, and so on. Starfleet is an 18th century navy in space.

Kor

 

[The Wormhole]

I think a more accurate spin on things would be, Starfleet is military, just not militaristic.

Saying something is a non-militaristic military sounds the same as saying it isn't a "pure military."

 

[jaime]

If it does military work, then it is military.

People keep thinking that all a "pure military" (whatever the hell that means) ever does is fight. But real militaries are involved in scientific work, and yes, exploration as well. Does that make them LESS military? Hell no!

I think a more accurate spin on things would be, Starfleet is military, just not militaristic.

Like a military watch strap?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In any case, PIC specifically said that Picard is, and I quote, "one of Starfleet's top military strategists". So why are we even still having this discussion? It's ing CANON that Starfleet is military.

 

[jaime]

In any case, PIC specifically said that Picard is, and I quote, "one of Starfleet's top military strategists". So why are we even still having this discussion? It's ing CANON that Starfleet is military.

Because there’s other places where characters say they are not military?
And because being good at military strategy does not necessarily mean you are in the military?
Because doing military strategy for when Starfleet is doing military stuff makes sense?
(Heck, sometimes when you look at history, you would think such a thing would disqualify you from service in some militaries by the looks of bits here and there…)
If it makes sense that Starfleet as a Military organisation can do other things like science and exploration, why does it not make as much logical sense that a Starfleet that is a Science & Exploration organisation can do things that are military?
NASA was/is a civilian organisation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Because there’s other places where characters say they are not military?

This one was a news broadcast. I'd call that definitive.

 

[jaime]

This one was a news broadcast. I'd call that definitive.

The phrase means that he is good at military strategy, which does not automatically mean he or Starfleet is military. Just that there is strategy, which is military strategy, that Picard is one of the top minds at, whilst working for Starfleet.
That Starfleet does military work, and would therefore need people good at military strategising, is not in question.
If Julian Bashir was wheeled out as ‘one of Starfleets top Medical Researchers’ it would not make Starfleet a medical organisation. Though of course, Starfleet Medical Academy is.
‘Geordi LaForge, Starfleets top Engineering Historian’ would not make Starfleet an historical society, not an Engineering firm.
Do you see?
Or to go back to earlier examples ‘Will Riker, Starfleets Leading Trombonist’ would not make Starfleet a marching band, no matter how much gold braid they stick on their Commodores.
There’s not many news broadcasts in Trek, so I am not decrying it as fake news. XD

 

[Farscape One]

Well, all Starfleet officers use small arms. Perhaps they are really a...





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