You do realise why it's called the Swiss Army knife right?
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
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You do realise why it's called the Swiss Army knife right?
Right? It's in the name... typed it, but apparently didn't read it
I'm not saying it's not a good analogy for what Starfleet is... I actually most agree.
It's just not an argument against Starfleet being a military organisation at least to a degree.
It's just not an argument against Starfleet being a military organisation at least to a degree.
A) kind of a black or white issue. Officially speaking.
B) What is you threshold for "military"? How much militarying does a military have to do to be one?
C) Why would Starfleet being a military be bad, if so?
B) What is you threshold for "military"? How much militarying does a military have to do to be one?
C) Why would Starfleet being a military be bad, if so?
it’s only called that because Americans nicknamed a knife that was fairly common in that part of Europe, that they got off the enemy as a ‘German officers knife’ and that name has connotations. Then the Luminox guys tweaked the branding and ran with it. It isn’t military issue that I am aware of. Nor is it designed for combat.
In context, let’s call Starfleet a ‘multitool’ as that’s more appropriate for the land of treks birth.
I think "multitool" isn't as widely understood, even in the US.
And to me, it's just the "irony" of using the word "army" in an analogy trying to distance from "military."
But, it turns out, it is in fact originally and still officially a Swiss Army "Soldier's Knife" (model 1890), designed by the Swiss Army, produced for them under contract, and then universally popular. The US soldiers apparently "coined the term" because they were calling it what it was, a knife made "by" the Swiss Army for their soldiers, and popular with other soldiers (specifically german officers... who called it an officer's knife) < wiki and a knife site/forum.
Well, there you go. I had heard the ‘German officers knife’ story in similar places. (I researched after getting one for a gift lol) Maybe early adopters didn’t differentiate between Swiss and German so much. XD
Specifically for the purpose of maintaining the Swiss Army's Schmidt-Rubin bolt-action rifles, though the can-opener was also useful for rations. Although a German company Wester & Co made the initial run up to 1891, Swiss cutler Karl Elsener took over production by the end of 1891 and his company (now known as Victorinox after his mother Victoria and the French word for stainless (as in steel)) still produces the knives for the Swiss Army and the public to present, and is the sole supplier legitimate supplier of knives of the type since acquiring its rival Wenger (originally Paul Boéchat & Cie) who shared the contract between 1908 and 2005.
Wow, I did not know that Victorinox had acquired Wenger. That's crazy.
That's awesome. And makes sense... a basic mini multitool is perfect for rifle maintenence... and the S-R 89 was in sevice ~1 year when these came out, which tracks.
Source?
How's this not upfront on the Swiss Army knife's history?!
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Primarily Wikipedia, but several key points are confirmed on the official website: https://www.victorinox.com/uk/en/Victorinox/Welcome/Company/cms/company and https://www.victorinox.com/uk/en/History/cms/history
It's fairly obvious you don't know much about the military, no matter what the branch is. The first people responding to a catastrophe in the US, is going to be the National Guard and local US Military elements as they are the best ones trained to do so. For example, the people who needed to be evacuated in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina were mostly done by US military personnel.
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It always comes down to Ex Astris Scientia.
The purpose of a military, is to wage war — offensively or defensively. They also do all sorts of other things, and are equipped accordingly, but an Uzi with a bottle-opener built into it is still not *really* for popping open your beer.
Starfleets purpose is exploration. I’ve made similar arguments before so won’t go on and on about why that happens to also need a rather big stick, I am sure the posts can be found.
Starfleet are Scouts. As in boy scouts.
The purpose of a military, is to wage war — offensively or defensively. They also do all sorts of other things, and are equipped accordingly, but an Uzi with a bottle-opener built into it is still not *really* for popping open your beer.
Starfleets purpose is exploration. I’ve made similar arguments before so won’t go on and on about why that happens to also need a rather big stick, I am sure the posts can be found.
Starfleet are Scouts. As in boy scouts.
A not-full-blown military would never win a war against an actual full-blown military. (Though it’s true: of the four wars with the Klingons we’ve seen — one in the “Yesterday’s Enterprise” timeline and three in the main timeline — in three of those the Federation was seen to be in the process of losing in purely military terms; the “Errand of Mercy” war is the only one where we don’t know how they were doing before hostilities ceased.)
(Sorry I seem to have messed up the post format somehow; please ignore anything below this line.)
I know that's not gonna work, but... well....
So it goes.[/QUOTE]
True …
Part of the reason that we go in circles here is because no matter what we say, Star Trek does what it does.
Picard: "We're not a military!" "Does that mean you're not going to train, and figure out how to fight the Borg." "Of course not. Hand me my phaser! It's next to the Collected Works of Shakespeare!"
If we ever had a story where there was an actual OUTCOME to the statement that Starfleet isn't military then we'd have some resolution. When the Borg, the Romulans, the Klingons, the Dominion, the Hardeeharhar roll up on Federation worlds intent on conquest, destruction, and bending the corners of all of your baseball cards and Starfleet as one voice says "We're not the military, call someone else!" then maybe we'll have something to talk about.
Until then the non-military force, the boy scouts, will continue to be better armed than any but the most powerful forces in our space (and working hard to be better armed than they are too), training, and fighting (and quite often dying). And in between that (hopefully for very long gaps) they will Boldly Go. And as we have seen with more equal adversarial neighbors (Klingons, Romulans) the better armed and trained Starfleet is the longer those gaps last.
Picard: "We're not a military!" "Does that mean you're not going to train, and figure out how to fight the Borg." "Of course not. Hand me my phaser! It's next to the Collected Works of Shakespeare!"
If we ever had a story where there was an actual OUTCOME to the statement that Starfleet isn't military then we'd have some resolution. When the Borg, the Romulans, the Klingons, the Dominion, the Hardeeharhar roll up on Federation worlds intent on conquest, destruction, and bending the corners of all of your baseball cards and Starfleet as one voice says "We're not the military, call someone else!" then maybe we'll have something to talk about.
Until then the non-military force, the boy scouts, will continue to be better armed than any but the most powerful forces in our space (and working hard to be better armed than they are too), training, and fighting (and quite often dying). And in between that (hopefully for very long gaps) they will Boldly Go. And as we have seen with more equal adversarial neighbors (Klingons, Romulans) the better armed and trained Starfleet is the longer those gaps last.
The Boy Scouts were founded by a militant military Brit who wanted to teach military discipline and skills to kids... it's ROTC for children.
Meanwhile... you've hit a logical problem: if "the purpose of a military is to wage war"... and whenever their *is* a war Earth sends Starfleet to wage it... because it is their purpose... by your own reasoning Starfleet is a military.
The SAK is actually a perfect analogy; regardless of what or who it was originally built to accommodate, its purpose has greatly expanded and to call it (exclusively) military at this moment in time would be improper (as the blade is one component of many and in no way representative of the majority). Some folks here are trying way too hard to squeeze anything vaguely related under the military umbrella (as in, if there is a single weapon involved in any capacity, it is apparently automatically fitting the standard of 20th/21st century militaries).
I never said it was their purpose.
They just happen to be the thing for the job in the future. Whilst not actually being a military, because they do not exist for that purpose, any more than the telephone line through which we get our internet was meant to be for watching television. It just worked out that way.
Turns out an expedition group needs weapons, and really good ones when you don’t know if it’s Ocampa this week or Hirogen. Turns out that makes them best suited to functioning as a military when you need one.
Having a uniform and a rank structure is no more indicative of being a military than it is of being a hospital. Or a McDonalds. Unless I have misunderstood the meaning of a four star general, and Sue at the drive-thru is going to call in an air strike any moment.
@Ragitsu I'll give you that "a single weapon" does not make a military. But I think when you can blockade the Romulan / Federation border you might be on shakier ground.
Whether or not they are a military they are well armed. They patrol borders. They fight wars. They engage in weapons research. They have an intelligence division.
They explore. They negotiate treaties. They have a medical wing.
They do a lot of stuff. Some of that stuff is blowing shit up and killing people.
Call them the UFP's Clown College if you want. They're still the ones standing on the walls ready to do violence to protect the Federation (and sometimes its neighbors). And we're usually told that they're pretty good at it.
You can say that they are more. They are. And you can say it isn't their only purpose. It's not. But it's the only purpose that when push comes to shove will always become top priority.
Whether or not they are a military they are well armed. They patrol borders. They fight wars. They engage in weapons research. They have an intelligence division.
They explore. They negotiate treaties. They have a medical wing.
They do a lot of stuff. Some of that stuff is blowing shit up and killing people.
Call them the UFP's Clown College if you want. They're still the ones standing on the walls ready to do violence to protect the Federation (and sometimes its neighbors). And we're usually told that they're pretty good at it.
You can say that they are more. They are. And you can say it isn't their only purpose. It's not. But it's the only purpose that when push comes to shove will always become top priority.
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