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Garrett Wang

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In the midst of this awesome Voyager Renaissance, it's the perfect time to bring Wang back as Harry and give the character some canonical development. Prodigy is virtually a Voyager sequel (and a fantastic one) and I have high hopes Seven is going to get her own show as a Picard spinoff. I'm sure Wang has long ago atoned for any bad behavior.
I could easily see Harry on Voyager-A, serving as Janeway's first or second officer. In the unfortunately non-canon "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway", it was revealed that Janeway's last act as Voyager's captain was to promote him, and that he steadily ranked up afterward, which is concordant with both STO and the alternate timeline of "Endgame". And, makes the most sense.
 
Oh yes, it would.
Because a lot of things were distorted and bad in that alternate universe. Paris would have been a wasted loser, for example.

Mileage will vary. "Doom and gloom" is only such if the characters stay there. They don't. They overcome and that is what I want. Dystopian means the bad guys win. That does not happen in any Trek.
you are correct when it comes to series like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY, however the movies and series after that are very doom-and-ghloom and so are the characters too. Typical 2010's and 2020's misery.

Winn became Kai over Bareil, who was the virtual shoe-in for the title. Her scheme ended up with him giving up the race, and she was able to get voted in as Kai. ("THE COLLABORATOR")

The Dominion got the Obsidian Order destroyed and severely hurt the Tal Shiar. ("THE DIE IS CAST")

The Voth leader got Professor Gegen to retract his entire theory and sent him to work in a department that renders him useless. ("DISTANT ORIGIN")

Salish got Miramanee stoned to death. ("THE PARADISE SYNDROME")


There are more examples, but sometimes the bad guys do win. That happens in real life a lot, so this actually keeps things somewhat realistic.

In "real life" the bad guys always win. Therefore i prefer other endings when I watch a series to relax and get away a while from "the gray universe".



He was choosing between a life of security, Vulcan mochas, hot sex with Libby, and rapid career advancement... and a life of danger, Neelix's cooking, high pitched sonic showers, and career ruination. Could we at least have had him be a little uncertain before choosing the latter?!
Well, a little uncertain would have been appropriate in the situation.
But there were a lot of things which weren't right in that universe and I guess that's why harry thought it would be better on Voyager.


Because like old dogs, they couldn't learn the new tricks needed to make Voyager it's own show?
And therefore they shouldn't have been involved in Voyager.
But the worst thing is that they abandoned the 24th century when they decided to make a retro series after Voyager, thus setting the standard for all the lousy movies and series we have had to stand after Voyager ended.



Different strokes, I guess.
I like my characters. :techman:



I quite agree. While I was fine with her initial exit (i know you weren't), they should have left it at that.
her "initial exit" was bad and should never have happened. But that other one was downright disgusting and insulting.



Or possibly made it more daring. ;)
I have my doubts because it would have created other not so good side effects, like Paris being a wasted loser.


Don't forget "Half a Life", and the planet that goes full genocide on its people. Of course, given that they've just eliminated the only man who might be able to fix their sun, maybe they do lose in the end.
I agree here. That society was downright terrible.
 
The last time he was at a DST in London I always thought they should've made a T-Shirt saying "I got some Wang at DST London".
 
I never got the big deal about Harry's lack of promotion. Unless maybe it helps distract from the fact that he was kind of a dull character?

Not always dull, and he did pair well with some other characters...but as an entity unto himself, eh.

Y'know, Odo never got a promotion either, and he was awesome. ;)
 
you are correct when it comes to series like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY, however the movies and series after that are very doom-and-ghloom and so are the characters too. Typical 2010's and 2020's misery.

Picard is REALLY dark, and how dark, depressing and gloomy it is is why we all love Star Trek right?? Other than that I don't really see it.
 
The fourth season of DISCO was perhaps the most true to the spirit of Star Trek that I've seen anything in the franchise ultimately prove to be. How anyone could accuse that of being dystopian is entirely beyond me.

Not saying it was flawless, great, or even necessarily good...but it definitely wasn't dystopian.
 
Oh yes, it would.
Because a lot of things were distorted and bad in that alternate universe. Paris would have been a wasted loser, for example.

I have my doubts because it would have created other not so good side effects, like Paris being a wasted

Agreed that Harry had reasons for second thoughts. But he also had very legitimate reasons for wanting to stay on Earth, which were never explored.

In "real life" the bad guys always win. Therefore i prefer other endings when I watch a series to relax and get away a while from "the gray universe".

Stephen King, in his mini essay "The Importance of Being Bachman", reminds us that the good guys usually do win... they just win in small ways that don't constitute escapism. The teacher who sacrifices herself protecting her kids from a school shooter might get more press than a teacher who spends 35 years supporting and emotionally nurturing her kids... but they've both acquitted themselves nobly.

Well, a little uncertain would have been appropriate in the situation.
But there were a lot of things which weren't right in that universe and I guess that's why harry thought it would be better on Voyager.

Really just one thing: Tom's life was a sinking, disintegrating mess. And that's tragic, but hardly Harry's fault.

To use a parallel, consider what probably happened to Nick Lacarno after Picard's "First Duty" speech made Wesley do what he did. It's conceivable that he wound up at a similar dive, drinking himself into oblivion because his life had been destroyed. We just don't see it.

And therefore they shouldn't have been involved in Voyager.
But the worst thing is that they abandoned the 24th century when they decided to make a retro series after Voyager, thus setting the standard for all the lousy movies and series we have had to stand after Voyager ended.

The problem is... they included time travel, phasers, transporters, photon torpedoes, and the Federation. In short, as with Voyager, they didn't go all-in on their unique premise.

I like my characters. :techman:

I do too. But consider the choice I had with this one character... either he lives and grows old alone, watching from a distance in frustration as the woman he loves builds a life with another... or he gives everything he has for a cause he believes in, falling in battle in a blaze of glory? And also, reminding the reader that in the end, there are no winners in war.

I never got the big deal about Harry's lack of promotion.

*Oddish turns bright green, grows to three times his original size (his shirt shreds but his pants miraculously stretch with him), and begins throwing large objects at @Tosk*

Just kidding...

Don't ask me why it gets under my skin. Maybe as a loser myself, it bugs me when someone else ends up the same way, especially through no fault of their own.

Unless maybe it helps distract from the fact that he was kind of a dull character?

Not always dull, and he did pair well with some other characters...but as an entity unto himself, eh.

If they had wanted to retire him from the series, I would have had no issue with that. "Non Sequitur", the episode @Lynx and I have been exchanging opinions about, would actually have provided a way to remove Harry's character from play without killing him.

Other options included making a major transformation to make him interesting again, like Nog joining Starfleet, or just letting him fade painlessly into the background... but NOT in a way that was deliberately calculated to humiliate him, insult the viewer's intelligence, and taunt the people who complained about it.
 
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What Harry wanted didn't matter.

He looked at Tom, and thought: "Pathetic"

And then fixed time to make him better.

Although... "time streams"

Sad Earth Tom stayed where he was in his own Harryless Time Stream.

Harry cocked it up.

He thought that there was only one malleable time stream, not infinite co-existing time streams.

Dummy.

Daniel Byrd is still lost in space, Tom is still a despondent man child, and Libby can find a real man.
 
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Picard is REALLY dark, and how dark, depressing and gloomy it is is why we all love Star Trek right?? Other than that I don't really see it.
This assumes there are exclusive reasons why people like Star Trek. And I haven't been depressed watching Picard so I still don't see that. Any more than TOS was depressing when things ended on a more somber note.
 
I apologize that I probably sound like a starry-eyed child here in that I accept the premise of the Harry and Tom friendship unquestioningly (I know, I know, they could have fleshed it out better, in between the dramatic highs they could have shown us instead of telling us how they had each other’s back in small ways too), but finding out my best friend was living a miserable existence? I would sacrifice a lot to fix that. A whole, whole lot.
 
it bugs me when someone else ends up the same way, especially through no fault of their own.

It's an interesting thought, though: What could Harry have done to increase his odds of getting promoted under Janeway? Save the ship every week? Try to get more on her good side? Or exactly the reverse: show her he has a backbone and doesn't go meekly with everything if he thinks she's wrong? (Personally I think she simply doesn't appreciate such behavior, as she doesn't seem the type. But Tapestry shows that sometimes you have to take your chances to get promoted).

Of course, the real reason was that the producers refused to have him promoted, but in-universe, I mean.
 
Picard is REALLY dark, and how dark, depressing and gloomy it is is why we all love Star Trek right?? Other than that I don't really see it.

I love Star Trek, especially what it was in the 60's,80's and 90's but I can't stand the current series and movies.
Honestly, I can't stand anything produced in the 2010's and 2020's. Everything is so incredibly boring. Too much darkness, gore , doom-and-gloom.

NCIS was the last series I watched but now it's started the way down too.

The fourth season of DISCO was perhaps the most true to the spirit of Star Trek that I've seen anything in the franchise ultimately prove to be. How anyone could accuse that of being dystopian is entirely beyond me.

Not saying it was flawless, great, or even necessarily good...but it definitely wasn't dystopian.
I gave up on Discovery after six episodes, which is often the limit when I decide if i should quit a series or not. Too much of it I didn't like, especially the Ninja Turtle Klingons.
Give me Gowron and his people any day!


Agreed that Harry had reasons for second thoughts. But he also had very legitimate reasons for wanting to stay on Earth, which were never explored.
You are right about that. harry should have had some moment in which he actually decided to stay. I guess that if this had been a DS9 episode or if Voyager had had writers of DS9 quality it would have been so.



Stephen King, in his mini essay "The Importance of Being Bachman", reminds us that the good guys usually do win... they just win in small ways that don't constitute escapism. The teacher who sacrifices herself protecting her kids from a school shooter might get more press than a teacher who spends 35 years supporting and emotionally nurturing her kids... but they've both acquitted themselves nobly.
I have to give you some points here too. There are situations in which I might write a story about someone who sacrifices himself or herself in this way. But only during certain circumstances and not as the only way to get rid of a character if the actor quits or something like that.

Really just one thing: Tom's life was a sinking, disintegrating mess. And that's tragic, but hardly Harry's fault.

To use a parallel, consider what probably happened to Nick Lacarno after Picard's "First Duty" speech made Wesley do what he did. It's conceivable that he wound up at a similar dive, drinking himself into oblivion because his life had been destroyed. We just don't see it. [/QUOTE]

No, it wasn't. But it was one of the things which was completly wrong with that alternate universe Harry landed in and maybe one of the reasons for Harry to decide to go back to his "real" universe.

As for Nick Locarno:
From Memory Beta:
In 2380, Locarno met up with the privateers of the Celtic in order to help them find a Starfleet vessel that had gone missing so that the privateers could take its technology. This first involved a confrontation with the USS Norfolk, which allowed him to gather information about the missing vessel and then Locarno shut down the Norfolk. Once the Celtic arrived at the Korso Spanse, Locarno identified the vessel there as the USS Reston which had been lost at the Battle of Sector 001 where it was taken by the Borg. Despite this warning, Captain Evan Walsh still ordered a boarding party over to the Reston, which Locarno joined. Once aboard Locarno attempted to reactivate the ship's computer core but was unsuccessful and the Celtic was destroyed soon after. Later, Locarno helped determine that the away team had been sent to the Reston to be turned into Borg and then allowed himself to be assimilated along with other members of the crew. (ST novella: Revenant)


The problem is... they included time travel, phasers, transporters, photon torpedoes, and the Federation. In short, as with Voyager, they didn't go all-in on their unique premise.
Exactly!

I do too. But consider the choice I had with this one character... either he lives and grows old alone, watching from a distance in frustration as the woman he loves builds a life with another... or he gives everything he has for a cause he believes in, falling in battle in a blaze of glory? And also, reminding the reader that in the end, there are no winners in war.

During the circumstances you mention, I could come up with a similar story too if my intention is to write some sort of biography over a Star Trek Commander or other hero.

But if I'm gonna write some kes stories or after-Voyager stories, I'd rather stick to telling those stories in an era a few yeaars after Voyager's return to the Alpha Quadrant and not give a d**n about how the life will be for my "heroes" when they get old or so. Aging is a curse which I try to avoid as much as possible, at least when I'm entertaining myself.


If they had wanted to retire him from the series, I would have had no issue with that. "Non Sequitur", the episode @Lynx and I have been exchanging opinions about, would actually have provided a way to remove Harry's character from play without killing him.

Other options included making a major transformation to make him interesting again, like Nog joining Starfleet, or just letting him fade painlessly into the background... but NOT in a way that was deliberately calculated to humiliate him, insult the viewer's intelligence, and taunt the people who complained about it.
In this case I agree. Letting him stay in that alternate universe would have been better than to kill him off if they had planned to dump him. But I don't think that they had such plans in the beginning of Season 2, they probably started to think about dumping Harry in season 3 when they started to lose inspiration for the series.
 
I apologize that I probably sound like a starry-eyed child here in that I accept the premise of the Harry and Tom friendship unquestioningly (I know, I know, they could have fleshed it out better, in between the dramatic highs they could have shown us instead of telling us how they had each other’s back in small ways too), but finding out my best friend was living a miserable existence? I would sacrifice a lot to fix that. A whole, whole

1. You have nothing to apologize for.
2. I adore the Tom/Harry friendship as well. It is one of VOY's finest elements, and the only good thing they did with Harry.
3. A reminder that this was not the Tom that Harry was close to, given that this Tom was incinerated with the shuttle, and Harry's pal Tom was on the bridge when he returned.

It's an interesting thought, though: What could Harry have done to increase his odds of getting promoted under Janeway?

He needed to do nothing. Janeway admitted that he had far exceeded her expectations. Ergo, his chances of promotion, had the same rules that applied to everyone else been applied to him, were already 100.0%.

This was showrunner incompetence, with no rational defense whatsoever.

No, it wasn't. But it was one of the things which was completly wrong with that alternate universe Harry landed in and maybe one of the reasons for Harry to decide to go back to his "real" universe.

Of course, had alt-Tom not unexpectedly aided him, nothing would have changed for him. Alt-Harry, the young man who had fallen asleep in bed with Libby the night before Harry woke up with her, was presumably deleted forever so Harry could take his place. Alt-Tom sacrificed himself so Harry could escape. And Tom was waiting for him.

The two O'Briens said it best... "I hate temporal mechanics."

From Memory Beta:
In 2380, Locarno met up with the privateers of the Celtic in order to help them find a Starfleet vessel that had gone missing so that the privateers could take its technology.

If we go by beta canon, Harry's a captain in at least two timelines and well on his way in a third.

Aging is a curse which I try to avoid as much as possible, at least when I'm entertaining myself.

Being past the half-century mark, it's rarely far from my mind. And it's only going to get worse...

During the circumstances you mention, I could come up with a similar story too if my intention is to write some sort of biography over a Star Trek Commander or other hero.

No such excuse. This character's contemporaries lived their best lives, started families, had careers. The decision to eliminate this kid came because one, he was still in love with my protagonist; and two, I had no other character to pair him with, and conjuring one out of thin air a few years down the road is too deus ex machina for my tastes. Simply put, when a character can benefit a story more in death than they can in life, I will usually eliminate them.
 
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I gave up on Discovery after six episodes, which is often the limit when I decide if i should quit a series or not. Too much of it I didn't like, especially the Ninja Turtle Klingons.

Considering that a full half of the series now has had nothing to do with the Klingons, maybe you should stop condemning a series you largely haven't even seen? Given the massive change in premise that the series went through in particular between S2 and S3, but to a lesser degree between S1 and S2, I think it's fair to say that if you gave up after six episodes then you're not really qualified to talk about it.

Just imagine using the first six episodes of TNG S1 to pre-judge S3 forward. Or DS9.
 
I think it's fair to say that if you gave up after six episodes then you're not really qualified to talk about it.
They're qualified to say why they gave up on it. You don't have to watch the entire run of a show just for the opportunity to say why you don't like it.
 
Anyone should be permitted to watch or ignore a given Trek series, without judgment by any of us. Be that as it may, though, Discovery might rate a second look.
 
They're qualified to say why they gave up on it. You don't have to watch the entire run of a show just for the opportunity to say why you don't like it.

I never said they weren't.

However, I'd say that while they can say why they didn't like it, they can't really say why they don't like it as the reasons for which they didn't like it may no longer apply.

As an example, if I didn't like VOY because I found the character of Kes that deeply problematic, then one could reasonably argue that I should give the show another look after "The Gift".
 
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