The Emperor's sense of Whimsy?

[Guy Gardener]

If this is a butthole...

Then this is a butthole...

I'm envisioning two scenarios. 1, Sheev put a buthole on his flag, and then he just dared anyone to call him out on it. 2, Someone else put a buthole on the Imperial Flag and Sheev flayed them when he finally figured it out.

When did you first realize the Empire was overseen by a tyrannical brown-eye?

 

[The Wormhole]

That was already used as the Republic's flag even before the Empire was founded, you can see it all throughout the Prequels. So draw as many comparisons with assholes as you like, Palpatine had nothing to do with it, besides deciding to keep it when he transitioned from Republic to Empire.

 

[David cgc]

That was already used as the Republic's flag even before the Empire was founded, you can see it all throughout the Prequels. So draw as many comparisons with assholes as you like, Palpatine had nothing to do with it, besides deciding to keep it when he transitioned from Republic to Empire.

Not quite, the Republic had eight arms, not six. I heard an explanation (it was probably fanon, but it might've been from the old EU) that each arm represented something specific, and so the Empire was removing two of the core values of the Republic.

That probably doesn't apply now, because the First Order had the same logo, but with sixteen arms.

 

[Reverend]

Not to bring pesky reality into the equation; but the logo was designed by John Mollo, and influenced by some old diagrams of 18th century colonial fortifications.

If I had to guess, I'd say the Republic version of it was meant to evoke more the look of some old Samurai banners.

 

[Ethros]

"Wookies have teeth on their assholes. That's canon."

 

[Guy Gardener]

Battle Droids are hilarious.

Did the Emperor presoppose to make Droids who were so funny, and cute, that a Jedi would never cut them down?

 

[Reverend]

My headcanon is that the B1s were a lowest bidder contract type situation. Despite the name, they weren't really meant for "battle", they were used as security on the Federation's massive trade ships, plus the odd "debt collection" from defaulting debtor planets. They were probably made with all off-the-shelf surplus components and software, repurposing a cheap model of labour servo-droid. Indeed, since they were all basically puppets for the droid control ships, it's not like they needed fancy processing power.

Also note that their personalities didn't get quite so quirky until TCW, which is when they stopped using centralised control and switched over to individual intelligence, that would have been from the same basic labour droid with some quick and dirty combat programming. Which if anything probably made them less effective, but that just means you have to deploy more of them and overwhelm by sheer numbers . . . which quite neatly means larger orders of cheaply made, but overpriced units.

Indeed half the point of the war seemed to have been to consolidate as much wealth and power as possible into as few hands as possible, so when it came time for it, it was that much easier for the Empire to swoop in and seize it all. Mostly it seems by overcharging for weapons shipments and material, and fiddling the interest rates. (Leave it to George to try and give a bunch of 11 year olds a primer on the military industrial complex!)

 

[Guy Gardener]

My headcanon is that the B1s were a lowest bidder contract type situation. Despite the name, they weren't really meant for "battle", they were used as security on the Federation's massive trade ships, plus the odd "debt collection" from defaulting debtor planets. They were probably made with all off-the-shelf surplus components and software, repurposing a cheap model of labour servo-droid. Indeed, since they were all basically puppets for the droid control ships, it's not like they needed fancy processing power.

Also note that their personalities didn't get quite so quirky until TCW, which is when they stopped using centralised control and switched over to individual intelligence, that would have been from the same basic labour droid with some quick and dirty combat programming. Which if anything probably made them less effective, but that just means you have to deploy more of them and overwhelm by sheer numbers . . . which quite neatly means larger orders of cheaply made, but overpriced units.

Indeed half the point of the war seemed to have been to consolidate as much wealth and power as possible into as few hands as possible, so when it came time for it, it was that much easier for the Empire to swoop in and seize it all. Mostly it seems by overcharging for weapons shipments and material, and fiddling the interest rates. (Leave it to George to try and give a bunch of 11 year olds a primer on the military industrial complex!)

Beautiful head Canon.

Unfortunately you forgot that the Battle Droids are supposed to lose. They have to by design be shitty soldiers, and if the Senator could make them a little shittier, he'd put that kink into their system.

Sideous pretending to be Cyfer Deus bought 4 million clones, which would not be ready to deploy for ten years. Logically at the same time, hours after meeting Anikan, he also put a purchase order in for 4 million battle Droids that would not be ready to deploy for almost ten years.

Of Course, did Sideous buy the soldiers, or did Sideous buy/take the factories that made the soldiers? Because the initial orders withstanding, the Seperatists and The Republic kept buying more soldiers throughout the Clone Wars.

Sideous was paying himself.

As an immortal telepathic, multitrillionaire, Sheev does not care about money.

He wanted two things.

1. Anikan.
2. To force the neutral worlds to side with either the Republic or the Seperatists, and then the Seperatists surrender, placing all the neutral systems under Imperial control.

 

[Reverend]

Unfortunately you forgot that the Battle Droids are supposed to lose. They have to by design be shitty soldiers, and if the Senator could make them a little shittier, he'd put that kink into their system.

I'm not 100% certain that's necessarily the case. I think Sidious used the war as a testing ground to see which approach would better suit the coming Empire: legions of unquestioningly obedient droids, or legions of unquestioningly obedient soldiers. After all he controlled both sides and repeatedly extended the war way beyond the point it should have been over. Had the droids proven to be the preferable option, it wouldn't have been too difficult to stage a Republic defeat and have Dooku declare himself Emperor while Palpatine is "captured" and put under "house arrest". Sidious was all about the Xanatos Gambit.

Ultimately, I think what Sidious settled on was a combination of droids and clones. By using poorly conscripts to fill the ranks of the Imperial Army and the Stormtrooper Corps, he got the sheer numbers of the droids combined with the relative adaptability of the clones. Indeed one major upside to the Stormtroopers being nothing like the effective soldiers that the clones were is that it would make any coup attempt that much harder to pull off. Any upstart would have to rally a *massive* number of troops to their cause to even hope to threaten the Emperor's position, and since said troops are divided up between the Moffs, Governors, Joint Chefs, and Grand Admirals--all with overlapping areas of responsibility and thus always eating each other alive to via for power--it would be impossible to sway that many before the others crushed them.

Plus of course once the last of the Separatist holdouts were conquered, the Empire would no longer have any real need of a standing army of effective soldiers. Stormtroopers are much more like highly militarised riot police. Thugs, not true soldiers. Their main function being one of oppression and occupation. To bring it all full circle, given the presence of the Dark Trooper program, it's entirely possible that had the Empire continued to exist they may have eventually circled back to droid armies once the pool of conscripts dried up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why do you think the Seperatists survived beyond the surrender Grevious, the extetmination of their leadership, and the droid armies being turned off in a way that they could never be turned back on?

There were no biological soldiers fighting for the Seperatists cause. The Seperatists did not have warships or ten thousand crew and 40 thousand Droids to staff such a war ship. Maybe they voted to be Seperatists, and then financed the droid armies... So realistically they had no mechanism or will to get blood on their hands.

 

[Reverend]

There 100% were non-droid Separatist forces, just as there were non-Clone Republic forces; it's just that most of them were concerned with guarding their own individual worlds. Case in point: Umbara. The droid armies and fleets were mostly the Alliance's expeditionary forces, so that's what we mostly saw when it came to invasions of Republic or neutral systems.
I mean think about it: if the *Gungans* could field an army, do you think the likes of CorSec couldn't? Or Chandrilla?Despite claims to the contrary, even the Alderaanians had armed blockade runners and trained security troops, just as the Naboo had the royal guard and it's own custom starfighter production facilities. It's just that it was all very small scale and provicial.

I think that's something people don't quite understand; it's not that there were no military forces left in the galaxy prior to the clone wars; it's that there was no cohesive standing army. All the militaries were localised militias and judicial forces dedicated to guarding their own systems and no more. This is how we get experienced military leaders like Trench, Yularen and Tarkin.
There wasn't anywhere near enough spare personnel or equipment to break off into an offensive force for a galaxy wide conflict--nevermind anything like a coordinated overall chain of command--hence the need for a centralised 'Grand Army of the Republic'. Or in the Separatists' case: the purchase of droid armies from the various commerce guilds.

Indeed that separation of clone & droids forces from the homeguard fleets were part of how the propaganda and disinformation war was waged on both sides. The citizens and leaders of the individual systems on both sides were told that it was all the other side that was the aggressor, that the droid/clone army was only there to protect them from the attacks of the enemy clone/droid armies. Palpatine & Dooku could play a coordinated pantomime war, openly blaming each other for this atrocity or that war crime, all the while playing towards their own endgame.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Umbrans defending Umbra.

So I guess what I should have said was...

Did the Separatist member worlds provide troops to the Separatist expeditionary force?

 

[Reverend]

The Battle of Umbra was The Confederacy of Independent Systems vs the Republic. Umbra had already withdrawn from the Separatists, and had signed up with a third group who did not get along with either the Separatists or the Republic.

I don't know where you're getting that from since this is what that article says about that battle: -

After the assassination of senator Mee Deechi at the hands of Lolo Purs, the planet Umbara seceded from the Galactic Republic and joined the Confederacy, pledging the Umbaran Militia and its advanced technology to the cause. Because of this action, the Republic launched an invasion of Umbara. The Umbarans and the Separatists put up heavy resistance against the invaders. Despite their efforts and Jedi General Pong Krell's treason against the Republic, Umbara successfully became part of the Republic again.

Not that Wookipedia is any anyway an authority on anything, but that all does line-up with what's seen on screen. Most notably the abundance of droid forces in the air battle overhead.

Did the Separatist member worlds provide troops to the Separatist expeditionary force?

Officers? Sure. I already mentioned Trench, but we also saw the likes of Whorm Loathsom and Lok Durd in charge of droid forces, plus we heard about Mina Bontari's husband (Lux's father) being killed by clones while he was helping to establish a base. Presumably he was a General or somesuch.
Troops? Not that we saw, but it was a big war and we only saw a tiny fraction of it. My gut however says that it would have been very rare. Much more likely for there to have been smaller commando and special forces units than full expeditionary forces.

Remember, this wasn't a war of aggression, it was a war of freedom and liberation . . . it's just that BOTH sides thought they were the liberators and it was the other side that was the belligerents. That ruse is a lot easier to pull off if the defensive are kept separate and don't know what the offensive forces are up to. Hence and increased dependence on tactical droids over organic Generals. Dooku was likely very careful about who he deployed where.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seriously that existed for about 20 seconds, an hour ago.

The Separatist leaders had been choking the trade roots and over taxing everyone.

The former member worlds would have been glad to see the back of Sideous, especially if the Emperor would only be taxing them a fraction, of his counterpart, unless there were reparations?

 

[Ithekro]

That's the other thing. The Separatists had two ruling groups. The planetary based Senate that thought they were fighting for freedom from the corrupt Galactic Republic. The group Dooku placated to a lot. And then the Corporate leadership that ran the war effort and funded the offensive war and all the side projects. These were the ones that operated the Droid Armies and were interested in profit and power. Dooku also placated this group, but they also knew of Darth Sidious, while the civilian Senate did not.

The Republic also had problems like this. Between the Senate, the Jedi, and the growing Military, the Repubic had many conflicting goals...more so as the Military gained power from the Jedi, and the Senate.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I did not finish clone wars, so I never got to this investigation into the organizational structure of the Separatists, but this is answering some questions that I have had for years now.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm not 100% certain that's necessarily the case. I think Sidious used the war as a testing ground to see which approach would better suit the coming Empire: legions of unquestioningly obedient droids, or legions of unquestioningly obedient soldiers. After all he controlled both sides and repeatedly extended the war way beyond the point it should have been over. Had the droids proven to be the preferable option, it wouldn't have been too difficult to stage a Republic defeat and have Dooku declare himself Emperor while Palpatine is "captured" and put under "house arrest". Sidious was all about the Xanatos Gambit.

The Jedi had to be destroyed before the Empire was founded, or more politely, the Supreme Chancellor "wanted" the Jedi destroyed before he founded the Empire.

1. How many Jedi died in the war?
2. How many Jedi died from Order 66?
3. How many Jedi survived the war and Order 66?
4. If the Separatists won, did they have their own Order 66, after the Jedi had negotiated terms for survival under Separatist rule?

I honestly think that the Separatists could have only won by accident.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Reverend]

They can't win by accident when it's the same person controlling both sides of the war. That's why it lasted as long as it did. Every time the Jedi gained a little too much ground, the Seperatists "somehow" got wind of what they were about to do next and were there waiting in ambush. Every time the Separatists gained a little too much ground, Palpatine would relay some vital piece of information from "clone intelligence" that would allow the Jedi to beat them back. Every time some Separatist leader was captured, they'd "somehow" manage to effect an escape. Two steps forwards, two steps back. Over and over.
It wouldn't be that hard to arrange a high Jedi casualty rate either. Simply deploy them where the needs of the civilians are greatest, arrange for a blockade to cut them off, then delay the relief forces just long enough for the Jedi to predictably have a heroic last stand and be cut down just as the relief forces arrive.

The point of the war wasn't for one side or the other to "win", it was to consolidate a much power and resources as possible into as few hands as possible, so that when to time came, it would be much easier to cease it all in the name of the Empire. There still would have been contingencies for either outcome regardless. The whole thing was a giant Xanatos Gambit.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They can't win by accident when it's the same person controlling both sides of the war. That's why it lasted as long as it did. Every time the Jedi gained a little too much ground, the Seperatists "somehow" got wind of what they were about to do next and were there waiting in ambush. Every time the Separatists gained a little too much ground, Palpatine would relay some vital piece of information from "clone intelligence" that would allow the Jedi to beat them back. Every time some Separatist leader was captured, they'd "somehow" manage to effect an escape. Two steps forwards, two steps back. Over and over.
It wouldn't be that hard to arrange a high Jedi casualty rate either. Simply deploy them where the needs of the civilians are greatest, arrange for a blockade to cut them off, then delay the relief forces just long enough for the Jedi to predictably have a heroic last stand and be cut down just as the relief forces arrive.

The point of the war wasn't for one side or the other to "win", it was to consolidate a much power and resources as possible into as few hands as possible, so that when to time came, it would be much easier to cease it all in the name of the Empire. There still would have been contingencies for either outcome regardless. The whole thing was a giant Xanatos Gambit.

I agree with you, but you don't seem to know what an "accident" is.

Sheev is planning for zero sum, but some unknown factor, a mixture of luck and bravery, creates a spontaneous opportunity for victory so quickly, that neither Sideous nor Palpatine can force a draw, or reverse that victory, and one of the sides in this conflict declares victory before the leadership is prepared for that to happen.

WKRP in Cincinnati. Mrs Carlson had put her idiot son in charge of a radio station that she wanted to lose money, so that she could make money from a tax liability. By the end of season one, WKRP was the number one station, and was going to make a profit. Mrs Carlson fired her son for being too good at his job.

Good god I am old. This is a positively arcane reference.

 

[Reverend]

There is no single "accident" that can turn the tide of a war *if it's being played from both sides*. The decks are stacked. The game is thoroughly rigged. Any "accidental" gains can be artificially hampered. The house always wins.

The closest they ever came (that we know of) was the incident with Tup and Fives.